In this episode, Delancey and Makaila wrestle with the gaze of others as their bodies change in eating disorder recovery. Off the mark, well-intentioned comments from others leave them flooded with shame and confusion. Delancey wishes others would not perceive her while Makaila is in conflict, on one hand desiring to be “fetishized” and on the other hand, not wanting to be objectified at all. Opal Co-Founders, Lexi Giblin, PhD and Kara Bazzi, LMFT, join Delancey and Makaila in drumming up the most provocative self-inquiry questions they can muster. Tune in to see which of these questions land with Delancey and Makaila while noticing what their work elicits in you.
To learn more about Self Inquiry listen to : Self Inquiry Overview episode
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Thank you to our team…
Editing by David Bazzi
Music by Aaron Davidson: https://soundcloud.
Sound engineering by Ayesha Ubayatilaka at Jack Straw Studios
Transcription by Rev.com
Lexi Giblin (00:06):
Welcome to the Appetite, a podcast brought to you by Opal Food and Body Wisdom, an eating disorder treatment clinic in Seattle, Washington. On this podcast, we talk about all things food, body movement, and mental health. I’m Dr. Lexi Giblin, your host for today, and I’m here with Kara Bazzi.
Kara Bazzi (00:27):
Hi everyone.
Lexi Giblin (00:28):
Kara is Opal’s, clinical director and co-founder, and I am a co-founder as well, and executive director and a psychologist. So we are joined here today by Delancey. Hi Delancey. Hi. And McKayla. Hi. Hi McKayla. Thank you both for being here. Delancey and McKayla will be doing self-inquiry on this episode in a bit. But before we give Delancey and McKayla time to do some self-inquiry work, let me share a little bit about what self-inquiry is all about. I’ll just give a brief overview now, and you can always go to our self-inquiry overview, episode number 1 25 if you would like a deeper dive into self-inquiry. So in this series, we conduct an Opal Self-Inquiry group on the podcast. So if you were in our higher level of care, you would experience something like this In our groups at Opal, listeners will learn the self-inquiry process and then hopefully find resonance and inspiration in the difficult questions that are posed to take to their own self-inquiry work.
(01:43):
I always find often other people’s self-inquiry questions are rich for myself, even though the content wasn’t born out of my self-inquiry work. If you’re new to self-inquiry, let me just say just a few reminders. Self-inquiry is a core mindfulness skill in R-O-D-B-T, radically open Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, which is founded by Dr. Thomas Lynch. And in this self-inquiry, we’re choosing to go towards unwanted emotions or distress with a very clear purpose, and that is learning and growing. So we assume that our difficult emotions are our greatest teachers, and we decide to let it linger a little on our difficult emotions and ask with curiosity what is not yet understood in our unwanted emotions. So we’re working to see beyond ourselves, see our shadow selves, see what we do not yet understand about ourselves. So we’re searching for the unexpected, we’re looking for fresh perspectives. We talk about coming to self-inquiry with disciplined ignorance.
(03:09):
So you’re intentionally trying to erase the learning you have to date so you can see this unwanted emotion with a new fresh perspective. And we are working to find good questions, not answers. So we are looking to find questions that challenge us. In addition to developing support networks, we are working to develop challenge networks. And self-inquiry is definitely a place where challenge is sort of the lifeblood of the work. So good questions are questions that cause dysregulation or elicit some sort of discomfort in your emotional experience or in your body. Often a good question to me is one that brings up confusion. It’s just like a new way of thinking about the content. So I often feel and find myself confused and not yet understanding even what the question is asking. So it’s up to you to decide the self inquirer to decide what a good question is because one question for one of us will not bring up difficult emotion, and the same question will bring up strong emotion in someone else.
(04:33):
Okay? So Delancey and McKayla are going to go through a self-inquiry process here in a moment, and they’re going to do some journal work and it’s a three to five minute process, short, intentionally. We talk about visiting the cemetery, not building our homes in the cemetery so that the process of self-inquiry is intentionally short. And within this five minutes, the tasks are to first feel, identify a specific time when you experienced an unwanted emotion and experientially take yourself back into it. So it’s not intended to be a cognitive process only, it’s intended to be an emotional one in addition to of course the curiosity that you’re bringing. And then the second part is to get curious, what is the learning here? What is it that I do not yet understand? And of course, you’ll be limited by your perceptual bias when you ask that question.
(05:40):
And that is what our group process will help you expand your understanding of what the learning is here because we have our perceptual biases that we can bring to the content. And then finally, the final step will be finding a reminder, which is finding a good question to get you back that can get you back to this learning in the future. And you might think about what question do I not want to ask? What question do I not want to have asked of me? What am I avoiding? So the reminder, this question should prompt you to feel the dysregulation associated with the learning. And then we’ll move into a group process and I’ll share a little bit more about that in once Delancey and McKayla have a moment to do some self-inquiry work. So Delancey and McKayla will give you five minutes to do some self-inquiry, and then we’ll be back on the airways.
(06:51):
All right, so McKayla and Delancey just finished some journal self-inquiry work, and now we’re going to open into the group process where they are choosing to allow us to ask questions of their work to see if we could jog some more learning for them. So in this context, we are looking for the most asshole questions we can possibly find, and doing so out of kindness where the assumption is that McKayla and Delancey want to learn from their unwanted emotions and are encouraging us to ask the most difficult questions that we can possibly find. And it’s important for you both to know that at any point, if you feel maxed out outside of your window of tolerance, please let us know and we will back away. It’s important that we don’t overload, overload you because we do want this to be a learning experience for you.
(07:57):
And let’s see, it’s important that we all work to not regulate one another during this time. So we want to have access to difficult emotions. We want the emotions to be right there so that we can work with them and learn from them and let them go where they need to go during our time. And then we can validate and love up on each other after the self-inquiry experience. So Delancey and McKayla, we’re going to write down what you’ll get your questions later. And remember, it’s important that you notice what questions are difficult for you to consider and not just assume because it sounds difficult, that it is difficult, really notice what it feels like to consider that question for your learning and growth. So if each of you could start with, we’ll start with Delancey, and if you could start by taking us into your self-inquiry work, giving us some context, and then we’ll open to questions.
Delancey (09:11):
So I wanted to pull from what I’m working on in therapy right now and what I’m working on is perception and specifically other people’s perception of me and in therapy. I remember this event about one or two years ago when I was first pursuing recovery and I was growing into a larger body than I had previously, and I was trying to figure out my style and I was working at this convenience store. It’s a very public job. And I remember one time I was stocking some shelves and I was wearing this crop top and I felt really confident and I felt like me and some lady came in and she was like, wow, that’s so brave of you to wear that crop top. And I was like, is it? Yeah. And I remember just feeling anger and really shameful. And in therapy, I think I’m kind of trying to process. I think when I first pursued recovery, it was so positive and relating so much into body positivity and then being met with the reality that that’s not always going to be the way people perceive you. And I think this also impacts the way I think about how strangers perceive me. Because on one hand I think I can be really hard on myself and my body and I can try to correct those thoughts. But then on the other hand, there are going to be scenarios where people perceive me in a way that I don’t want to be perceived or feel uncomfortable being perceived that way. So yeah, that’s what I’ve been working through.
Lexi Giblin (10:51):
Thank you for sharing. Can you help us understand is if this specific memory, the time in the convenience store where the person says how brave of you.
Delancey (11:05):
Yeah.
Lexi Giblin (11:07):
So take us into that emotion a little bit
Delancey (11:09):
More. Yeah. Yeah. I think I remember just feeling really confused at first and then realizing that she was saying that it was brave of me to wear a crop top in a larger body and feeling really angry towards her. And then also feeling really shameful that this was my body and this was my choice to wear clothes like that. Yeah.
Kara Bazzi (11:43):
What of those two between the anger and the shame is the more dysregulating emotion?
Delancey (11:50):
I would say shame for me. Shame. Yeah.
Lexi Giblin (11:57):
And as you shared about it, did you notice your emotion getting more present at any particular time as you just shared with us?
Delancey (12:08):
Yeah, I feel like I’m feeling anxious and yeah, it feels vulnerable to share that and and also I think I do still feel angry about that and I think that’s totally valid and something I can lean into. But yeah, I think, yeah, the anxiety around the shame is what’s coming up and feeling uncomfortable.
Lexi Giblin (12:38):
And you’re open to questions from us. Absolutely. Okay.
Kara Bazzi (12:43):
How have you learned to give kind of power away to others to define who you are? Does that tap into any distress? Yeah. Okay.
McKayla (12:57):
Do you actually give yourself the chance and opportunity to feel the negative feelings or do you overcompensate with positivity instead?
Lexi Giblin (13:09):
Are you a person who tries to not be angry?
Kara Bazzi (13:14):
What would you risk losing if you let yourself be the definer of who you are?
Lexi Giblin (13:22):
What are you actually ashamed of those questions? Are any of them bringing up more than another question?
Delancey (13:37):
Yeah. I mean, what are you ashamed of was I think it made me feel confused. So I think that’s really good. And care is questions about can I give power away? Could take power away from others and kind of allow myself to define myself. Those are really landing and bringing up sadness and anxiety.
Kara Bazzi (14:02):
In the vein of the question I asked, there’s something like a question around, is there a risk or a loss of potential connection if you don’t let others? If you get to define again who you are, what’s at stake,
Lexi Giblin (14:22):
A question’s coming up for me around how you orient your life around pleasing others
Kara Bazzi (14:34):
And maybe who taught you how to do that.
McKayla (14:37):
Something that’s coming up for me is I think that, I mean, none of us really have the ultimate answer to what happens after we pass from this one life that we get or if we get a billion others. But so in the vein of that, if you only get one life, how much more willing are you to let other people and their perceptions of you control it?
Lexi Giblin (15:05):
I’m thinking of the word that she used this word brave, and it’s interesting. It was intended to be a compliment. And I guess that word bravery stands out to me. And I wonder what is your relationship to bravery? And maybe in what ways are you holding yourself back out of concern of perception? Any other remaining questions? Okay. Appreciate you sharing Delancey. Thank you guys. Alright, let’s turn to McKayla.
McKayla (15:53):
Okay, it’s time. So a little background on this situation is that I’ve also kind of been on my own journey of kind self-acceptance and understanding my body now as it is also as somebody who is recovered slash still in active recovery. How I define it is that I’m still in active recovery. I don’t think that ed voice is ever going to disappear from me, and I’ve kind of accepted that and I’ve learned to live with it. But so I say I am recovered, but also an active recovery. And with that comes me being in a body that’s a lot larger than I’m used to that in, and that’s kind of just like the body I’m in, and I’m still working with that. But along with this whole self-discovery thing, getting back into dating at various different times, sometimes the dating pool really, really sucks. But this one experience that I had with this person I was seeing for a bit, and at the time this didn’t feel as icky and nasty as it does now, but they said something to me while we were on a date and they had actually expressed, they expressed liking how my body looked.
(17:31):
And at the time it felt very affirming, but specifically the words that they used were, I like girls with meat on their bones. And at the time it just kind of hit me and I didn’t really process it. And then I processed it a bit later. I’m not seeing person anymore, thank God. But I processed it later on and I was like, that was actually my first experience with being fetishized for the body I’m in. And it, it freaked me out and made me feel so gross and insecure. And also it also hit me because I remember that when I was at my absolute lowest with body image, I was kind of hoping and praying that someone would fetishize me or fetishize my body because I hated it so much and I hated how I looked so much. And yeah, so I think the question I have in self-inquiry is that, am I only going to be loved because I can be fetishized and not actually loved for who I am outside of what I look like?
Kara Bazzi (19:04):
What is it, what emotion even now, does it bring up the most of? What’s the dysregulating emotion?
McKayla (19:11):
I would also say shame.
Lexi Giblin (19:15):
Okay. And you’re open to questions from us. Okay.
McKayla (19:17):
Yes, let’s do it.
Lexi Giblin (19:19):
Okay. Well, at one point you were wanting there was a desire for being objectified and then this other experience where you did not want to be objectified and do not want to be objectified. So I guess my question is are you in conflict regarding your desire or regarding how you might be perceived by others? Is there a part of you that does want to be objectified?
Kara Bazzi (20:13):
And maybe to just piggyback off that, what would it mean about you now, your recovery in where you are currently? If there was a part of you that wanted to be objectified, what would that mean about you as a person? The other question I’m thinking about is if you take your appearance or your body off the table, what is lovable about you? What truly do you believe is lovable about you?
Lexi Giblin (20:47):
My mind was going in a similar direction as that question around do you love yourself or going to be is maybe another question, are you ever going to love yourself? This question of am I ever only going to be loved due to my body and my objectification? Yeah.
Delancey (21:17):
I’m also thinking about romantic love is just one type of love we can receive and can platonic love and love from your friends be enough for you?
Kara Bazzi (21:31):
And have you ever believed someone else has loved you outside of your body? Are we getting at questions that are getting you into distress?
Lexi Giblin (21:44):
Absolutely. Is this really about your body?
Kara Bazzi (21:56):
Are there ways you’re participating and hiding yourself to be loved outside of your body?
Lexi Giblin (22:02):
Are you choosing people who don’t know how to love you?
Kara Bazzi (22:09):
Yeah. That one, I know it’s like that hits for that hits.
Lexi Giblin (22:19):
Are you being clear with others about how you want to be loved? Other questions? Okay. Thanks to you both for sharing so vulnerably today. It is an honor and a privilege to have you on and for you to share these really tender parts of your experience with Kara and I, but also with all of the listeners. I hope that it will help the listeners get to know themselves more deeply through McKayla and Delaney’s vulnerability and risk taking here on the podcast today. If you are interested in doing self-inquiry on air with us, submit an application by clicking on the link in the episode description. If you want to learn more about self-inquiry, go to our self-inquiry overview episode. Thank you to Jack Straw Cultural Center for Sound Engineering. Thanks to Aaron Davidson for the Appetite’s original music, and to David Bazzi for editing. If you want to learn more about opal’s programming, go to opal food and body.com. Until next time.
