Listen in to this one-of-a-kind episode of The Appetite as Opal’s co-founders, Lexi Giblin, PhD, and Kara Bazzi, LMFT, sit down with Opal client Koa to explore her experience receiving in-person care at Opal. With honesty and vulnerability, Koa shares how her relationships with fellow clients and Opal staff became a pivotal part of her recovery, ultimately leading to profound and transformative change.
Whether you’re considering a higher level of care, currently in treatment, or hoping to better understand a loved one on their recovery journey, this episode offers meaningful insight and connection. Koa bravely invites listeners into an intimate, behind-the-scenes look at what in-person, intensive treatment can offer someone who is truly suffering.
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Thank you to our team…
Editing by David Bazzi
Music by Aaron Davidson: https://soundcloud.com/diet75/
Sound engineering by Ayesha Ubayatilaka at Jack Straw Studios
Transcription provided by Rev.com
Kara Bazzi (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Appetite, a podcast brought to you by Opal Food and Body Wisdom, an eating disorder treatment clinic in Seattle, Washington. It is a podcast about all things food, body movement, and mental health. I am Kara Bazzi, co-founder, clinical director and director of Exercise and Sport program at Opal, and I’m joined by Dr. Lexi Giblin, executive director and co-founder. And we are the co-hosts of today. Hi
Lexi Giblin (00:29):
Lexi. Hi everybody.
Kara Bazzi (00:30):
Hi. Hi. Fun to do this with Lexi. And today we have a special treat and that we have invite today a special treat. Yes, a special treat and that we have invited in a client of Opal. Her name is Koa, and she will be talking today about Friendship community and how that has played a large role in her eating disorder recovery, both in and outside of Opal. So welcome. Hi.
Koa (01:05):
Thanks for having me.
Kara Bazzi (01:06):
Very fun to have Koa here in the studio with us.
Koa (01:10):
It’s exciting. Yeah, it’s exciting and also nerve wracking and so many things at the same time, but I’m really glad to be here.
Kara Bazzi (01:17):
Yeah. Well, to get us going, Lexi, and I thought we’d start with just talking a little bit about opal’s approach to relationship because treatment centers do this a little differently. Sometimes higher level of care eating disorder treatment centers will create rules or guidelines around relationships between patients. So they might encourage no contact, they might encourage that people don’t develop friendships outside of that treatment setting. And my guess is that it is for protection of the patients or the clients in being triggered by each other and their eating disorder behaviors. But that is not the approach Opal takes, actually. Lexi, why don’t you share what approach Opal takes around this topic?
Lexi Giblin (02:04):
Yeah, I think we are so relational at our foundation that we can’t imagine recovery without relationships and in higher level of care, you are in a time of crisis in your life and you’re wide open and it’s so vulnerable. And when you’re in that kind of difficult time of life, you’re more likely to connect, especially with people who are going through the same thing. So it always felt like anti-human in a way to try to block something that’s so natural and also something that could be so powerful in someone’s recovery because we do believe that recovery happens in relationship. So we’ve always held a lot of respect for the relationships that are developed in recovery. We know they’re complex, but we know that all relationships are complex. So we kind of invite that complexity in at a time where clinicians can help support and provide guidance around how to deal with complexity and relationships. So yeah, that’s been our point of view.
Kara Bazzi (03:30):
And as Lexi’s the guru of our ODBT, we don’t federalize our clients. And so we recognize that being triggered is going to happen everywhere outside of treatment. And so we’re not trying to protect our clients from getting triggered and instead lean into the power of relationship and all of the potential of relationship and then support, like she said, our clients in navigating those potentially difficult interpersonal interactions when it comes to the eating disorder. With that preamble, why don’t you share a bit about your journey as it relates to relationships and treatment?
Koa (04:12):
So, so much that I want to share. I think for me, before I came to Opal, I didn’t have relationships and my eating disorder I think formed in different capacities. But before I came to Opal, it was the point where it was suffering and loneliness and I didn’t have any relationships or the relationships that I had, I wasn’t vulnerable in. And I remember sitting in an RO and there was a vulnerability scale and there was like, Nope, I’m at zero to one and that’s comfortable for me and I’m going to stay there. And the whole model was fuck around and find out, and I was like, Nope, I’m going to stay right here because this is what I know and I’m fine without anybody else. That was my whole thing was like, I just need to do this on my own. And I think for me what changed was the relationships that I formed at Opal and discovering what my needs were.
(05:21):
And for me, I knew there was several needs that were being met. One of them was comfort for me. I think the human connection of it, I had been to a couple treatment centers right before this because there was a long gap of time where I was like, I’m fine, I’m recovered. And it was just this whole facade of See, look at me, I’m recovered. I’m recovered, but I was suffering by myself. And then it got to the point where it’s like, no, I actually need support and I need to be taken care of in a way, and I can’t do this on my own. And I know that version of me that had been in treatment centers before who had maybe used it as a survival tool and realized, this isn’t fun anymore, I don’t want this anymore. And coming to a place where it was the food first.
(06:17):
And then we kind of talk about, and we have connection and community over the struggle of life. And I think that was a big part of it for me was the relationships that I formed and the people who were there for me. There was times where I think that understanding and getting into deeper levels of connection for me personally happened over the table. And I think for me it was the times when I would just hug somebody afterwards and be like, that was hard. That was hard, but I still had to do the food and I knew that the food for me was this catalyst to not talking about the other things that I was needing. And so I think Opal for me allowed me to have the foundation of experiencing relationships and kind of setting that precedent for like, oh, I can ask for my needs and people can still love me or people can like me and I can grow and evolve into who I want to be and still be accepted for that. So I have so much gratitude for the people who have been with me on this journey, and now I’m kind of in this phase where I understand what the food did for me.
Kara Bazzi (07:41):
It’s interesting because oftentimes people will talk about the eating disorder as their friend, and this eating disorder is the support. And I would love for you to speak to how friendship of humans take us through where is the friendship of the eating disorder limiting, and how would you describe what you’ve discovered in terms of what humans can give you and what relationship can give you that the eating disorder no longer can?
Koa (08:12):
Yeah, I think for me, the eating disorders was both my friend and my greatest enemy too. I’ve been doing a lot of backs, I think especially because my time at Opal was coming to a close now and it’s saddening at the same time. And also I’m going out into the world without this being my clutch, my friend. And I think for me, the eating disorder was a friend in the ways of it being away for me to express emotions that I didn’t want to acknowledge and meeting maybe needs that I didn’t want to say out loud. And yeah, I think a big one for me was punishing myself or not knowing how to handle the overwhelm that I was feeling. And oh boy, I learned how to communicate that to people and test it out in a way where it’s like, okay, the food is hard and I want to do these things right now.
(09:17):
Can I tell you that I want to do these things right now and outing myself and the honesty in that and knowing that this is not my friend, this is a way of taking out the suffering or the hurts on myself, and I don’t have to do that, but I want to, but what am I needing? What’s the deeper meaning beyond the food? And I think when you are prioritizing the food over the struggle, in a way, the struggle of the food is its own issue, but I think Opal gives you the menu of what to do. That’s what your dietician is for. And it’s like, trust this here. We have this whole menu for recovery. Here it is, we’re experts. And it’s like, okay, I don’t want to do that, but I know what the suffering of the eating disorder has done for me.
(10:16):
What is it like without it for just a little bit? And I think giving myself those time limits. I remember when I first came to opa, I was like 30 days, that’s all I’m doing. I’m just doing 30 days is going to be a 30 day money back guarantee. If I want to do it, I’m going to do it. And if I hate it, I know what my eating disorder has done for me and I know the comfort that it’s given me. And I think what is beyond the eating disorder is so much greater than what the eating disorder has provided for me.
Kara Bazzi (10:51):
Amazing, amazing. We’re both just beaming over here. This is such a treat
Koa (10:57):
To listen to. No, this is such a treat. I have so much gratitude for this and for the philosophy that I feel like has helped me. I think going back to treatment eight years later, seven or eight years later, and I went to first treatment center, I was like, this isn’t it. And then the second one, I was like, this isn’t it. And something about it just isn’t it? And then I was like, this one, okay, but I don’t know how I’m going to get here. How is it going to happen for me to get here? There’s no hope. And I had a very, very small circle of people in my life at that time, and those people that kind of showed up for me at that point in time helped me to be able to come here. And it was like, okay, now you’re here and here’s the food.
(11:48):
And I was like, I dunno about actually, yeah, I remember there’s this TikTok that I had sent to one of my outpatient therapists and it was like, yes, no, yes, no, yes. It’s like the Grinch. And he’s like, yes, no, yes. And I had that ambivalence of like, no, I’m doing it. No, actually I have my fingers crossed. I don’t want to do it anymore. And it’s like sometimes I don’t want to do it and sometimes I do want to do it. And connecting to those reasons why I do want to continue on has helped me in the times when I don’t want to do it because I know what recovery feels like, even if it’s just momentary. I don’t think I’m recovered at all, but I think I’m closer to that and that has felt more real now than it ever has in the past.
Lexi Giblin (12:43):
Koa, I’m wondering if there are some standout moments you have in your relationships as you’ve gone through this recovery journey thus far. When has your support team really shown up, your friendships really shown up for you?
Koa (13:04):
I think so many times for me, I think I have this one time where I remember it was a hard day for me and I was like, I’m leaving. I can’t do it. And that was my mindset. And then I saw my friend in the hallway and she was like, I’m leaving. And I was like, I don’t want to do this. And she’s like, I don’t want to do this either. And then we both kind of hugged each other and we cried and then we ended up crying until we laughed on the floor because we realized we were in the same boat. We don’t want to do this right now. But then I think those moments of laughter kind of kept us going. There’s still struggle, but then I think about the times when I have been at the table and I have been laughing and coming to the table was difficult and coming to the table and having that connection that was deeper than if I were to be doing behaviors at the table. If I were to be focusing on avoiding the food that’s communicating something, but we’re all struggling, but why did we have to take it out on this? Why can’t we just talk about that piece of it and get to the root of recovery?
Kara Bazzi (14:25):
It’s interesting. What comes to mind when you’re saying that is presence and being present with people and having just that authentic experience in the presence of others. And I’m thinking of Opal has made decisions along the way in this change of COVID and virtual care to be in person. And part of the reason we’ve chosen to remain in person is for what you’re talking about of that experience of almost walking out of this out of the space and you run into somebody in the hall and you have that moment.
Koa (14:59):
Yeah,
Kara Bazzi (14:59):
I don’t know if you have any thoughts about that, and I know virtual treatment is, it can be for work for people and it can be effective, but for us, we’ve really prioritized that human, the flesh, being in flesh with others, having that actual physical presence. And I’m curious if you’d want to speak to that
Koa (15:17):
Piece part. Oh my, that was so important for me. It was having the in-person piece of it. I was toggling back and forth between these two options that I felt like were the only options in Portland. And then it got to the point where it was like, we only have this virtual option. And for me, virtual, it perpetuated secrecy for me. And I think there is beauty in the relationship and comfort for me. I didn’t have that. And so when I was in person and I was with people, I could build relationships better with people versus over virtual and I wouldn’t be where I am now or have made the progress that I have made in my recovery had I stayed in virtual care. I think all of the elements, I think it was having the food provided, having the groups where we were next to each other, having my therapist with me and my dietician with me, all of that have helped me get to where I am. And for some people it works because they have other priorities, but I needed all of the aspects that was provided here for me to get to where I am in my recovery right now.
Lexi Giblin (16:38):
So Koa, I wonder if you could share more about some of the complexities of the relationships. We are talking about all the positive amazingness and we certainly know that there are some very real complications in recovery relationships.
Koa (16:59):
I formed truly amazing friendships here with some incredible humans, and I have so much love and gratitude for them. And I think the complexity lies in the fact that the way our relationship first formed was through the shared struggle of an eating disorder. And our relationship goes so much deeper than the eating disorder. But I think what’s difficult is how do we navigate when one of us is struggling with the food? And I think for me, when I hear that they’re struggling, I hurt. And when it’s more than one person, it can be discouraging because I want us all to be recovered and I have so much love for them and I know that they are capable of it. And I don’t know, I think that people with eating disorders are some of the most beautiful and compassionate people because they take out a lot of their pain and the hurts on themselves.
(18:26):
And I know that they are so much more than the eating disorder. And for me, I feel like I have come closer or I am closer to the finish line than I ever have been in the past. This is something that I have had for half my life and it feels like it’s starting to dissipate. It finally feels like I am feeling freedom from it, and I want all of my friends to be alongside me on this road as well. And I want us to all cross the finish line together. And I want this to be a chapter that we all close in our lives, something that we have all conquered together. But I also recognize that all of our journeys are different. And for me, my journey has been really long and I have had to fail and pick myself back up over and over again.
(19:35):
And it took a lot of time and it took a lot of failures and a lot of hardships to get me to the point where I am now. And I don’t want them to have to go through that too. But I also have to understand that their recovery is their own and my recovery is also my own, and I have to protect my recovery as much as I can. And I want them to all experience freedom with food. And I want everyone who is struggling with an eating disorder to experience freedom with food and to be recovered from an eating disorder. I think the so suffering in life is hard and there’s so much that happens in life, but the suffering with the eating disorder is more lonely. And when we’re not using the eating disorder, we’re more connected with each other. And I feel like our relationships grow deeper when we’re not using the eating disorder for it.
Kara Bazzi (20:48):
And I know we talk about, we do that is part of being human is suffering. So to be embracing that as part of the human experience, but then what does that look like in with still hopes of being recovered from the eating disorder, not having the eating disorder be the place that the suffering is brought to.
Koa (21:12):
We just had an RO recently actually about suffering and I was thinking a lot about it and I was like, okay, there’s suffering. Wait, so when you’re not with the food, you’re still suffering. Suffering is still a part of life. And I think that was kind of a realization for me throughout my journey here and throughout my recovery journey was I think I had this whole optimism that recovery was going to be me with these list of things and then I would be happy. And it’s like you can have those lists of things and still not be happy and kind of redefining what that is and understanding that in life, I am going to suffer still. I’m still going to struggle, but I don’t have to struggle with the eating disorder.
Kara Bazzi (22:05):
I don’t need to. And you don’t have to struggle and you don’t have to struggle alone. And that’s part of this relational piece.
Koa (22:12):
And that’s the thing too is I don’t have to struggle alone.
Lexi Giblin (22:17):
CO is referring to a conversation we had into in RO about no matter what path you choose, whether you choose eating disorder or recovery, they’re suffering either way. And so maybe the better question is what values do I want to live by rather than avoidance of suffering? What might be our guideposts in terms of values?
Kara Bazzi (22:42):
And
Lexi Giblin (22:42):
I really hear that in what you’re sharing, that one of your guideposts is relationships.
Koa (22:48):
Yeah, a thousand percent.
Lexi Giblin (22:49):
That’s a value of yours and that’s really helping you get through.
Koa (22:53):
Yeah, I’ve realized how important it is for me to have community and friendships and connection in my recovery, and I think that’s something that I’m working on right now is people without eating disorders. It’s kind of my own self-inquiry right now. It’s like, how do I build community outside of Opal? How do I express the weights of life without using my eating disorder as a catalyst for it?
Lexi Giblin (23:21):
Yeah, I mean it seems like what you’re saying, Koa, is that you are finding a way to be connected but separate. So staying close then, but not joining in the eating disorder.
Koa (23:36):
I think that’s something that I’m working on right now. I still have hard days. Some days I have really good days, and then some days are really hard and difficult for me. And in the moments when they are hard and when I am alone, I sometimes think back to the times when I was at Opal and we were together and we were sharing a meal, or even the times when we were outside of Opal and we were getting coffee together and getting lunch together. I think thinking back to those moments of connection that we had over food have helped me through those difficult times. So yeah, I want to replicate what we had in Opal outside of Opal, and that includes the food life happens and struggles happens outside of Opal. There’s so much life that we’re dealing with, but I also don’t want to be in relationship with the eating disorder part.
(24:49):
And I hope that we will utilize each other as support to strengthen recovery and that we can build each other up. I think part of it is probably boundary setting too, and figuring out our capacity. I think sometimes you might have a little bit more capacity and other days you might not have as much, but my recovery feels really new right now too. And I know if I were to have a lapse or if I have a relapse, I don’t want that to happen. But if it does, I would want my friends to do the same thing. To me, I think our relationships are so much more deeper than the struggle of food. And when we are doing and talking and having the food together, we can be there for each other more rather than
Kara Bazzi (25:48):
It being the focus. And I was just thinking we are talking about relationships with others, and you’re describing how you’ve built your relationship with yourself too. You’ve expanded and built and learned so much about yourself and what you want and what you need and what that looks like in relationship. And we talk about this, everything that you’ve learned at Opal relationally, you will be bringing to new relationships. So even though you have to go through some of those first steps of building relationships, you know how to be vulnerable now in a way that you hadn’t before, and that is a change in you that is going to serve you so well in building intimacy with other people. You know how to build care, you’re recovered. You know how to build intimacy now you do. That’s so true. And you don’t have to have the eating disorder to build that intimacy.
Koa (26:41):
And that’s what I’m too, is I’m okay. I can be by myself and be okay, and then I can be with people and I can also be okay, and I can have connection. I feel like I have freedom and joy when I am with people when having it over food. There’s so much connection that happens over food. And then there’s also it happening on my own too. And I’m like, now I’m in my studio apartment with my dog and I’m like realizing that I have free will has been amazing. I can have whatever I want for breakfast now. I can go and try this and see what happens. And yeah, I think Opal gave me the foundation of fuck around and find out. I remember my dietician was like, let’s just fuck around and find out. I was like, okay, I’ll give it a shot here when I’m like, I can do that outside of here. And I don’t think that I’m completely there yet, but I have leaps and bounds of recovery that I would not have been able to have had I not come here. So
Kara Bazzi (27:58):
Cool. Anything else you want to say before we wrap this up?
Koa (28:08):
If you are struggling with an eating disorder, go get support and go to Opal. Honestly, if you actually want recovery, go to. Yeah. There’s a whole framework here that I feel like has helped me, and a part of it is in community, and I feel like the community that I have had here has been incredible. And that is the people, and that is the staff that have welcomed me and the philosophy of expanding yourself outside of the struggle of the food. And I have so much more expansiveness and food is still a struggle at times. There’s times than I don’t want to do it, but I know what the suffering in life is now, that it’s not going to be perfect. It’s not going to be this recovered is not this instance of not feeling pain. That’s still going to happen in my life. And also, I am a person who’s figuring out life and I’m more aligned with my values as a person and more in touch with the world.
(29:31):
And yeah, I can see the sunrise and feel alive. I can watch the water and feel alive and see my dog and be a better person in the world because of it, because I’m not so focused anymore on my own suffering with the food. There’s more to that. So there’s more to people and there’s more to you when you’re not in your disorder. So I hope that for everyone, I hope that everyone who’s struggling has a taste of what recovery feels like or if not, think about what you’re suffering in their eating disorders and the loneliness that you feel because that’s not what life can give you. Life is so much more than that, and I sound like that’s on a cereal box. But yeah, so I would like to share a poem that I wrote. It’s titled Sweet Elle. And for those who don’t know, nne is the group room.
(30:37):
And for me personally, it was a very powerful room that had a lot of laughter and a lot of hugs and tears as well. So sweet Ava. Now, I might cry when I’m reading this. Just so you know, I One day we’ll recall this moment in time, the room of soft, comfy couches where we sat side by side, oh, sweet, Ava. Now all that you must see entering his caterpillars, unsure of what can be caterpillars to cocoons, cocoons to butterflies. You’ve witnessed the transformation. Here’s where we’ve come alive. Here. You may have entered with walls all around here. You may have entered because life came crashing down outside the window. Buildings stand tall. You may think I’m not weak. I can conquer them all. But if you look closer, a flock of birds will fly by through the sun, through the rain. They soar on by.
(31:46):
Take the wrist, speak your truth, fuck around. And you’ll see you’re not alone or too broken. As you may think heads forward, wingspan will fly side by side as we weather the storms that are stirring inside. And someday soon we’ll move on and say our goodbyes. We’ll, so on. We’ll leave Opal and go on with our lives. But my dear sweet friends, your journey does not end. A new version of you has emerged endless opportunities lie ahead and one day you’ll land on your soft comfy couch and recall the days you spent here with sweet Ava. Now maybe you’ll recall the days that your walls came down, or maybe you’ll recall the days laughter echoed throughout. However you remember your time in this place. Look back and be proud of the transformation you’ve made.
Lexi Giblin (32:50):
Love that. I know I’m over here tearing up and just feeling like feeling so grateful for your story and just how meaningful it is to be a part of it in any way, and having some impact on you is just really hits me, hits me in a deep place. So really appreciate your involvement in this community and you sharing your recovery store today.
Koa (33:22):
Thank you and thank you all. And thanks to Zoe.
Lexi Giblin (33:26):
Zoe,
Kara Bazzi (33:26):
Zoe,
Koa (33:26):
Therapy dog at Opal. Props to
Lexi Giblin (33:29):
Zoe,
Kara Bazzi (33:32):
And I’m just beaming too, of seeing your evolution, seeing the way that where you are now from when you first started Opal, it’s just remarkable to see you come into yourself and you come into more parts of yourself and your deep love. You’re such a caring, you’ve been such a caring person in the community to others, and it’s really remarkable. Yeah. Okay. If you’re interested in Opal and want to learn more, please visit us at opal food and body.com. Thanks to David Bazzi for editing. Jack Straw Cultural Center for Sound Engineering and Aaron Davidson for the Appetites Original Music. See you next time.
