The Appetite 117: Aging and the Body: An Interview with Connie Sobczak of The Body Positive

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Editing by David Bazzi

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Transcription by Rev.com

Julie Church (00:05):

Hello and welcome to the Appetite, a podcast brought to you by Opal Food and Body Wisdom, an eating disorder treatment clinic in Seattle, Washington. It is a podcast about all things food, body movement, and mental health. And today I’m going to be your host, Julie Church. I am the nutrition director and community relations director and one of the co-founders of Opal. And today I am really pleased to have a guest, somebody that I’ve had as a parallel kind of journey in my development in opening Opal and understanding the sort of the spaces of body positivity and eating disorder treatment. And I’m really pleased to have Connie Sobczak of the body positive. I could say lots of different things about Connie, but she is the founder and executive director of the body. Positive and her experiences and passion drove her to co-found the body positive with Elizabeth Scott because of her own eating disorder and because of losing her sister to body hatred and all the things that go along with having an eating disorder. We hope to hear a little bit more about that inspiration, Connie, during our time today, and she’s an author of the Book and Body. She’s out there and Ted X talk talking about embracing your critical voice. And I think more and more you could probably fill me in and fill our listeners in about the future of the body positive, but our paths certainly crossed many years ago and excited to have you be able to share some of your wisdom and your journey with our listeners. So welcome Connie.

Connie Sobczak  (01:32):

Thank you so much, Julie. It’s a pleasure to see you talk to you and be with you for this time.

Julie Church (01:39):

Yeah. So is there anything that you would want to be highlighted first, maybe in terms of your journey and what’s going on in the present about the body positive for our listeners to hear about before we dive into our main topic today, which is going to be about talking about aging and that intersection with body positivity.

Connie Sobczak  (01:58):

Lovely. Yes. You heard a little bit about my story, but it really is a personal journey that got me to create the body positive. I had an eating disorder when I was a teenager, and so did my sister Stephanie. We developed bulimia at a time when there wasn’t even a word for it, so I had to figure out how to get through it on my own. Stephanie unfortunately didn’t ever get over her eating disorder. And then when she was in her early twenties, she got breast implants because she thought something was wrong with the shape of her nipples and she went to have them fixed. And when the doctor said, well, maybe while you’re here, we can just make your breast bigger, she said, yes. And the implant, one of them hardened and the doctors crushed it with their hands and while it was in her body and it oozed and leaked silicone into her bloodstream and she developed lupus. So that ended up killing her at the age of 36. And at that point I had been over my eating disorder for probably just a little over like the brown a decade, and my daughter Carmen was a year old, and I just freaked out and thought, how am I going to raise this child and this culture that’s so body shaming and I have to change the world for her? So that’s why I started the body positive.

Julie Church (03:17):

Yeah. Yeah. It is so deeply impactful to hear your commitment to that and your continual legacy that you want to change things for the better because of that pain. And I think it’s interesting to hear about, and that was as I was sort of refreshing my memory around your story and Stephanie’s story hearing about the body modification component of what really led to the end of her life. And I know that that will be talked about as we talk about aging today for sure as well.

Connie Sobczak  (03:48):

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So that all happened in the nineties, and then I met Elizabeth Scott, my co-founder in 1996, and that’s really when I feel like we kind of put together what the body positive was going to be. And we started training student leaders first with high school and then expanding to college and then starting to work with professionals. So basically training people to use our curriculum to create body positive environments, which are brave spaces where people can come together to talk about the struggles they’re having with the messages that they’re getting, and then ultimately how can they make change in their own lives and how can we support them to create these changes. So it’s been phenomenal. We have worked with middle school students as well, and now we’re developing a kindergarten through eighth grade curriculum for the classroom, which I’m really excited about.

(04:40):

In the early days we had videos and lessons for classrooms for kindergarten through high school, but those kind of got outdated, but it’s always been just this really beautiful process of reaching young people to help them see that there’s a different way to be in their bodies. And that was my original idea was can we plant seeds in people who can grow up differently? And I think for me, just knowing that, I mean I’ve worked with thousands and thousands and thousands of kids, but also seeing that my daughter really, it was the experiment that I started with. It worked. My daughter is 31 now and she has been able to grow up focusing on what she wants to do and say in the world instead of on body shame. Right. Wow. No obstacles. Yeah.

Julie Church (05:25):

That’s wonderful. Congratulations on that. I think as a parent with still younger children, I just wonder what impact are we having and how can we continue to be a voice while there’s so many other pressures and voices and influencers. So I’m so glad that that’s true for your story and Carmen’s story.

Connie Sobczak  (05:45):

What I want to say though to parents who are listening is it wasn’t just me. It’s impossible to do it just as a parent, which is why we create body positive communities in schools. And the peer-to-peer education piece is so powerful, especially with middle school and high school students and having community where people of diverse sizes, shapes, ages, ethnicities, all different backgrounds are saying the same message about we are choosing to love our bodies, do the work to love our bodies in a culture that is trying to make us not and all the pressure. So it can’t be on just a parent to make sure their kid grows up loving their body.

Julie Church (06:28):

Yes, yes, absolutely. And I am glad that you’re speaking about a lot of the curriculum that you offer because as our listeners, I think I just want to make sure anybody’s out there that has a community that they want a resource for to have just some conversation starters. I think a lot of what that curriculum is is here’s some framework that then in a community of people you care about some framework to be able to work with. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. The body positive has created something that can give us tools to be able to grow as facilitators and leaders in some of those spaces. But also just a framework of some great questions and exercises to be able to do in a group, because I know with my kids, you got to just have good questions to get them started, to be able to get them to think outside the box of maybe the ways that they’re thinking about things. And so I know that that’s one of the best things about having your established curriculum, and I just hope folks can hear like, okay, I don’t have to reinvent the wheel. I could reach out. Definitely not positive. Definitely not.

Connie Sobczak  (07:30):

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it’s been quite a journey. I had no idea what I was starting when I started it and bringing it up to this process of talking about aging. I mean, Elizabeth and I created the five competencies of our B Body positive model, and I got over my body stuff when I was in my early twenties. I was really lucky I did it myself. I did it with a community of new friends that supported me and new partner and just people were there for me. And so I feel very lucky I never had treatment. I just was able to get through and then really did the work to love my body through my twenties and have an intuitive relationship with food and movement, which there was no field of intuitive eating or intuitive movement at the time. So there was nothing really there for me.

(08:17):

It just sort of intuitively happened in my life. I just really started listening to my body and I turned towards myself with love. And so that part happened, and so I was fine with my body, even pregnancy and the different changes, and then along comes menopause and the body changes again. And so I do the work every day. I mean, that’s everything that I started earlier and the things that I’ve been teaching people I work with regularly with my own body. So that’s been a real blessing. I don’t think I would’ve aged as joyfully or with as much appreciation and actual love for my body if I hadn’t started the body positive and created community around me where people are doing the work no matter what it is to love themselves

Julie Church (09:05):

More. Yes, yes. Yeah, that’s true. And I tell that to my clients, and I think that’s a great example of it is saying, you will be better and better equipped for what is next in life because you have had to do this deep dive into your own self and your own understanding of your own journey because of the development of your eating disorder, then yes, you’re getting help. You’re seeking a deeper understanding of yourself, and that is going to build you skills for whatever else life will bring you. And yeah, aging is one of those things, I guess. So I’m wondering, when we think about aging, what are we even talking about? I guess, what are all the aspects of that that you consider or the powers at be here when you think about aging?

Connie Sobczak  (09:52):

Well, it’s interesting because I mean, we are all aging constantly, even young people.

Julie Church (09:57):

Yes,

Connie Sobczak  (09:57):

Every day we are aging, and yet our society has created demarcation lines where this is acceptable and this is not. So you get to this age, certain things change with your body. Now we decide that that’s ugly. So wrinkles, flesh, lumps, more flesh, all the different things, sagging, mix, sagging, chins, all that stuff that happens, it’s suddenly like that is ugly, and therefore we are supposed to spend our money, spend our time, spend our resources again, as we did most many of us when we were young on fixing ourselves. And then we live in a culture that glorifies youth and doesn’t honor wisdom, and it just focuses on appearance and that that’s most important. And so what are we supposed to do with all of that? It’s hard. It’s really hard.

Julie Church (10:53):

Yes,

Connie Sobczak  (10:53):

I made a commitment when my sister died that I was going to have as much fun in my life as I could because I didn’t know how long I would be here. I mean, I know she had complications that caused her death. Yet I also felt like, I don’t know, and I’ve had a lot of loss in my life, and I’ve had friends who have had a lot of loss of people of different ages. And so how do we know how long we’re going to be here? So how do we want to live those days, minutes, seconds, years, decades, if we are lucky to be here?

Julie Church (11:24):

Yes, yes. And to be constantly trying to pull oneself back to what was youth or what was young or what was life is just missing the presence and missing the present and missing what is the gift we have in every day If we’re just trying to get back to looking a certain way, that was when we were younger, or to maybe just look a certain way that is acceptable in whatever age or stage we’re in. I think when I ask about aging, and of course from your work, you’re going straight to appearance. I think one of the other things that I find in the stage that I’m in is that people are definitely talking about health in a different way and wanting to fend off the things that come with natural aging and the way that our bodies will be deteriorating in the way that it does with aging and kind of what health issues might arise. And maybe that health is such a confusing word sometimes, but perhaps disease formation that can happen with aging, but also just maybe change in functionality and change in capability perhaps that can come with age. So I don’t know if that’s also something that versus just appearance and all the things that come along with aging, but also all of the pressures to fend off some of those natural changes in our health or functionality that come too.

Connie Sobczak  (12:58):

So one of the things I think that happens is there’s a lot of fear that comes up. And fear doesn’t help anything. Fear makes us tight. And if you could see me, I see people tighten up their bodies. I want to be healthy. I want to be healthy. I want to live a long life. I want to live a long life. I want to be healthy. And there’s this, I love

Julie Church (13:19):

Your voice change.

Connie Sobczak  (13:21):

Yeah, exactly. That’s what I hear, right? It’s like it’s fear. Fear is ever present. And so combined with appearance, I mean, I think what’s fascinating is people will say things like, yeah, I just want to be healthy and I want to live a long life, but then they do hate the appearance that comes with living a long life. So we have both going on at the same time. So for me, getting to know my body, yes, learning all about all the things that we can do to prevent disease from happening or whatever it is, that’s cool, but experiment with your own body. Does it work for you? Are you giving up food groups because someone says you’re supposed to? How does that work for you? How does it work for you on the physical level, but also on the emotional level and on your joy level and on your pleasure level? So is it going back to a restrictive way of eating or I’m supposed to move in a certain way and I’m only supposed to weigh this much because that’s what so-and-so said, I’m not supposed to have belly fat because I heard from somebody that belly fat’s bad, all those things. How is that working for you? The question, is that actually leading you to better health on every level of the definition of health, or is that making you miserable? Right?

Julie Church (14:42):

And when you say fear as sort of a foundation, right? So much fear leads to disorder or to lack of full life in that way. So I think this is just the same, the fear of, and you fill in the blank, right? It’s still the fear of not being loved or not being accepted or having regrets or whatever. All the fears that could come with as one is looking at the maybe second half of their life, I’ll say, how about or considering that they may be moving into the second half of their life thinking, oh gosh, what is it that I’m fearful of? Fear can be early in life for the various reasons, and then it just morphs and changes. Yeah,

Connie Sobczak  (15:26):

Exactly. And we live in a fear-based society. I think everything that we do, there’s so much fear promotion around it. That’s how people make money off of us is promoting fear. That’s something to really pay attention to. It seems that there’s just fear in the air media is everything is bad and horrible. Yes, things are bad and horrible right now, and I’m not pretending that they’re not. And there’s also a lot of beauty and amazing stuff in the world to pay attention to as well. So how can we take in information from the outside world in a way that doesn’t cause us to tighten up and be afraid of ourselves and of the world around us, and what’s going to happen? What if, what’s going to happen? We spend so much time in that what if place? And it is scary. I mean, I’ve had some stuff recently where one doctor said, you should take an EKG, and then I did it, and then there was an abnormality, and then I did another test, and then there was still an abnormality, and then I did another test.

(16:28):

And that point, I couldn’t read the results properly and the doctor shamed me because I was trying to find out one line that I’d looked up online. One of the little line items made me scared, and so then I reached out. That’s the thing when fear comes up, gather information, and I was trying to, and she wouldn’t respond. And when she did, she basically shamed me and it’s like, you should never just trust me and trust your doctors, don’t look things up. It’s like, yeah, but you didn’t reach out to me for a week. And so I spent a week in managing fear. I knew I was okay, and I had to trust my own body. I mean, I was climbing mountains. I was fine.

(17:09):

I wanted validation. And so those are things that you do have to deal with as we get older and stuff does happen. And yeah, I am living with someone who’s got stuff going on, and it’s tricky. And then we still come back to the present moment. Who am I now? Where am I now? What’s happening now and what’s around me and what can I have gratitude for? I think that everybody should watch Bi Angel, as is my absolute hero. She has two videos. One is an interview when she was in her seventies, and she talks about it being delicious, and it’s just the way she says. It’s like it’s delicious and it’s just in that voice and oh my God, I just love that. I watch that regularly. And she has another one where she didn’t interview with Oprah in her eighties, and they’re talking about gratitude. And so for me, it really comes down to I’m here if I have one more day, if I have five more days, if I have 10, I don’t know. And so it doesn’t mean that I’m always there, but I have this body and this body allows me to have life, and I see so much beauty around me and there’s so much that’s precious in the world, and I want to experience as much of that as I can. My mom is going to be 95 this year. She is.

Julie Church (18:29):

Okay. I wondered how she was doing.

Connie Sobczak  (18:31):

Yep. She’s living with us. She’s been with us for almost three and a half years, and she’s slowing down and she has limitations and sometimes, and her brain is changing, and there are days where it’s really hard for her and she grieves what she’s losing mostly about her brain, but she can’t do as much. I mean, when she moved in at 91, she was weed whacking our yard and doing planting and stuff, and she can’t do that now. Her balance is off and her body’s changing a lot in the last few years, but I watch her move through things even when it’s hard. She has that point of grieving time, and that’s really important in this process. And then she’s like, okay, but I’m here. And my aunt who lived to be 97 every day, she said, the last time I saw her, she said, yep, I wake up. If I wake up, I’m happy that I woke up and I’m going to do what I have to do and learn what I have to learn.

Julie Church (19:27):

Wow. Well, you have such a lineage of long life and then just this ability to have an attitude shift perhaps, and maybe that’s something that you were taught too, but I’ve always appreciated that so much of you is being able to stay or hold the pain or be aware of something that’s difficult, but then also find that joy and gratitude. There’s something in what you were sharing that got me thinking about learning. And I know I’ve read some about, oh, we need to be learning new things even as we age and how that will help anti-age our brain, keep it strong and keep it being able to work well for us in all the ways we want it to. But I hear you learning new things about the body and health and how your own body’s working, and then what you learn from caring for those in a different stage of their life too, as you’ve cared for your mother and maybe your aunt as well. Yeah. I would love to hear what you would say to speak to learning, I guess, and the role that has in this different stages of life as we move through it.

Connie Sobczak  (20:33):

Well, I’ve been inspired by my mom for learning. She went back to school when I was 17 and had graduated from high school and she needed to go back. She needed mental stimulation. She’s a very smart person and she should have been in the science field, but she was born in 1927 and didn’t get there. But when children are grown and gone, she went back to school and she became a respiratory therapist, so she got to do part of her science stuff. And then she went back to school again when she was close to 60 and became a therapist and worked with Vietnam veterans for the, I mean next 20 years she’s still working. Some still call her. I mean, she doesn’t charge. She doesn’t have a practice, but she has people calling her still to get help from her. And so what I learned is it’s never too late to try new things.

(21:26):

And so whether it’s school, if that was her thing, for me, I’m really excited about doing new courses and new groups and different things for people who are aging. So I have the body positive and that I love it. And yet I can feel in myself, I’m 62, I can feel this. And for many years I’ve been feeling this. There’s something new. There’s something new. There’s something new. And allowing myself to follow that. So that’s creative stimulation for me. That’s me though. For each person. It might be hobby, it might be travel, it might be something that keeps us taking in information in ways that peak our curiosity, I think is really helpful. That’s

Julie Church (22:08):

Good. That’s good. And I think even in, as I was hearing this, so I can read a lot about if it’s learning or stimulate your brain in such a way to prevent aging, but what I appreciate in the way that you reframe all of this is it’s about having life. It’s about actually allowing for each stage and honestly each day to be a gift. And I think that is a good reframe. Instead of trying to push off what’s there, it’s more of No, no, no. It’s learning. It’s being the full self and allowing for yourself to be what it is. And I think, yeah, each of us are going to have different interests or pulls in terms of that learning or what our brains might move us towards. Our hearts move us towards,

Connie Sobczak  (23:00):

We can’t push off, we can’t prevent. We are going to age if we’re lucky,

Julie Church (23:06):

Right?

Connie Sobczak  (23:07):

That’s the whole thing. So anti-aging, pushing it off, trying to change it, it doesn’t mean we don’t learn about the best, most beautiful self-care habits that we can gain. That’s beautiful. That’s wonderful. What is the reason for doing that? It’s because I love myself and I’m here and I’m aging every day. I mean, I can’t push it off. And I see it in my mom and she’s like, why am I still here? I don’t know. And what we’ve realized is my mom has been helping other people with self-love so much and helping them love themselves and did so much for so many people. And what learned when she moved in with us is she had to start practicing some of that for herself. She’s fine with her body. She accepts what is she thanks it every day for letting her be here, and yet she’s been having to, I saw how hard she was on herself, and that was her lineage. And then I realized, oh, well, that’s probably where I got some of that too. But I’ve done my work and partly because of her helping me, and so now I get to help her. But here we are. Why am I still here? I don’t know, but I’m still here, so I am aging,

(24:16):

And that’s a fact. And if I am, I lucky to get to her age. There are parts of me now where it’s like, wow, that’s pretty intense. And do I want to get that old? I don’t know. But whatever’s going to happen is going to happen. I can’t control that except for all I can do is care for myself in a way and care for this body. And part of that is loving it, even with its shifts and changes in what it looks like. And that I think is really hard for people, which leads to a lot of cosmetic surgeries and all sorts of different things, which I don’t judge people at all for doing that. Not even one ounce. I get it. And I just want to know. I want people to be aware of their motivation.

Julie Church (25:00):

Yeah. Yeah. When I think about what is available to try to have the external not look like the body is aging, we’ve got hair coloring. I mean that’s, people start that real young actually, teeth whitening. That’s something that I don’t think my parents were offered in the intensity that we are offered that right now. And again, that starts at a pretty young age too, and it’s very unnatural to me when I see people, especially people on TV that have very obviously done intense teeth whitening. I’m like, that is so fake. But I guess all the wrinkle prevention, so that can be everything from lotions to probably also surgeries and things, of course, Botox and all the things there. And then the actual surgical body modifications that can happen from removing parts of the body, changing parts of the body. So I guess, is there anything else major that you would say? Sometimes I think people aren’t even aware that these could be part of the anti-aging movement. So is there anything else, macha that I missed that you think is a pretty big thing that’s getting marketed or being pushed and the message, subliminal messages. Don’t get old. Don’t look old.

Connie Sobczak  (26:27):

Yeah, I think you got it. I mean, that’s a lot of it. Yeah. It’s just everywhere. And I think the thing for me, and one of the main things I teach people is just stay conscious of what you’re taking in, what the messages are and how you’ve absorbed them into thinking something is right or for you, you should do something, but where did that message come from? Who are you surrounding yourself with? Why do you feel like you have to do these things? And again, people want to do that. Totally fine with me. I’m not attached to how people live their lives. My goal, if someone comes to me and is suffering, I’m going to say, what is your motivation? What do you want from your life? What do you want from your life? What’s important to you? And if it’s important to you to look like you did when you’re in your sixties, you’re trying to look like you did when you’re 40, you’re still not going to, but you think you do, that’s fine.

(27:29):

Go for it. I get it. There’s so much pressure. Or someone’s partner might be pressuring them into doing it, which I’ve heard a lot too. I feel very lucky. My partner is someone who loves my body as it’s changing. And I feel very fortunate. One of the reasons, I mean, I met him when I was still bulimic and he was going to be my first fling after a relationship where I was poked in the thighs and saying, I should go run. And then we started dating and I realized this was a really kind human being and who supported me in being me. And so whether that’s from friends or family or partners, how can we surround ourselves with people who want us to be more of ourselves?

Julie Church (28:20):

How can we have, I always say the hedge of protection around each of us and those people and the communities that we’re a part of. What is being talked about? What is time being spent doing and what are the motivations for it? I think it’s interesting when you say you don’t have judgment, and it’s okay if somebody is going to be using some of these, I guess putting their resources, time and energy into some of these things that might alter their appearance to look younger. And I think maybe I’m more judgmental than you are,

Connie Sobczak  (28:56):

But I think it’s great. I’m not saying when I see Hollywood stars who don’t even look like themselves anymore because they’ve done so much to their faces, what I feel is sadness. I think that’s what I mostly feel. I mean, I definitely had a lot of period of judgment, but then I realized the pressure on people,

(29:14):

Pressure on people to look a certain way, and especially those in the public eye. I get it. I mean, I get it. And they think they’re doing the right thing. And so I’ve gone through a phase of, I mean, I think it looks scary to me personally, and I see us going in this direction where we’re going to have plastic people and we’re going to have people who are, I don’t want to use the word real, but that’s judgmental, but there’s natural, I don’t know what to call it, but they’re going to have a whole plastic

Julie Church (29:46):

Modified,

Connie Sobczak  (29:47):

Pardon, modified. And there’s also, people love to modify their body. So again, there’s so many different ways we modify our bodies, so trans folks and different, all the different surgeries people are doing. That’s also been part of my moving from judgment because bringing in that piece, it’s like, well, of course, and body modification with tattoos and all the different ways and cool play with your body. Again, it comes back to what’s your motivation? Why are you doing this? If it’s making you more in alignment with who you feel you are, then more power to you. Go for it. Go for it. If it’s from that place of I feeling pressure or fear because I don’t fit or I’m afraid of losing love, that’s where I, and it’s not making you happier. That’s where the staying conscious about why is important to me.

Julie Church (30:40):

Yeah, the staying conscious is so true. And even for our younger listeners, if they’re thinking, why am I listening to this podcast? It’s saying, okay, yeah. What are the practices that we use now to stay conscious of what we are consuming and what we’re taking in and things that were being sold, and then how we want to react to that. And I do think that, yes, if we can sort of find a source in ourselves of some pain or suffering that then is making us feel that we need to do this thing or need to alter this or change that at whatever stage of life we’re in, that’s where it’s going. Okay, is that how I want to address my suffering? And is this really the true answer? It maybe for some it might feel like, yeah, I’m going to do this and exactly right, I can do this thing. And I know that I also want to do other work that might be not as appearance driven or something, but maybe there is a both and that maybe I can also see it’s important to not have that concern that I can tend to be sort of okay, all of that can be as bad type thing versus

(31:52):

Recognizing No, no, no. If it can be a both. And we’re all on our own journeys in that way,

Connie Sobczak  (31:57):

And that’s the piece of it. We’re all on our own journeys. And so for me, I know what’s right for me, that’s all I know. I can’t pretend to know I know anything about anybody else except for me. And I think that that’s where, I mean, I think about all the influencers on social media or before even just do it this way and you will be this follow my way, and you will have this and you will be free, or spiritual guides do these practices and you will have this, but you must do it my way. And if you don’t or if you fail, it’s your fault, not mine. So for me, it’s just this idea of all I know is to listen to my own heart and to listen to my own wisdom. And then if people want to have conversations with me around what’s right for them or wrong for them, that there will be, as you said in the beginning, lots of questions and opening space and playing with ideas. And that’s what I do in my groups now. I have a theme once a month, and our last one was on forgiveness. And so whether it’s forgiveness of the body, forgiveness of ourselves for not getting through our to-do list, forgiveness of others, forgiveness of just the fact that we’re humans is really what it came down to, that that’s so freeing, forgiveness that the body does age, that this is part of being a human. I think that’s a really big thing.

(33:25):

And then I have other themes, balance, which really doesn’t exist. There is no balance. We’re just constantly in motion. And sometimes we hit a point, it’s like, Ooh, that feels good, but then things shift and change, and so how can we explore different ideas? So that’s the way I do it with people is just to explore ideas and then support them in finding the path that feels best for them. Yeah.

Julie Church (33:51):

Yeah. It’s similar. I hear the parallel to what you developed with the body positive that maybe was a bit more targeted to younger folks in terms of prevention of eating disorders and having that same, just creating that safe space, that brave space for folks that then are in later life to be able to think about these themes and just talk openly, and I love it. Yeah. You’ve named balance forgiveness, I’ve heard you say grief regret. I could see all of these things being joy, gratitude, I’m sure are all themes. Is there any other things you’d want to share about that? And is that going to be more of a project that would be open to the public in a similar way, being trained to then do this? Yes. Or Oh, really? Oh, what

Connie Sobczak  (34:34):

Am I doing? Tell us more. Yeah. One thing I did that was really fun, it started in 2018. I was working with a young friend of mine who was in his late twenties at the time, and we created, that was when I was really first thinking about I want to do something around aging. And so he and I created a little photo booklet called Bodies of Nature. One of the things that’s helped me the most, I go to this lake every year. I’ve been going there since I was two. It’s really the place learning, climbing the mountain, free climbing, just as kids all over the mountain. I learned about listening to my body closely because I had to know where I was putting my hand, my next foot, because if I fell, I would die. There’s a good chance I’d crack my head open. And I was there while I was healing from my eating disorder.

(35:25):

And I believe that that learning there really helped me in my process of healing, trusting my body and remembering that that was one place I trusted my body. So as my body started changing, I suddenly, I was hiking one day by myself, and I was on this mountain and there certain trees I love, and I put my hand up next to it and I went, oh my God. I’d been sort of like, Ooh, I don’t like the way my skin is changing on my hand. And I want to say every sort of shift that happens in the beginning, I’m like, no, I’m not going to be able to accept this. No. And then I somehow incorporated it into my new definition of beauty. And so one was my hands. And so I went, oh my God, my hands are tree bark, and I love this tree bark.

(36:04):

It’s got rough texture and it’s got all these different textures to it. And I just went, wow, that’s cool. And then I saw my legs being lumpy. I love when the sparkles of light shine on the lake and they’re like diamond sparkles. It’s one of my favorite things in the world, but it doesn’t happen unless there’s ripples on the lake because the wind has come up, and when it’s smooth, there are no diamond sparkles. And so I started seeing my thighs as the ripples on the lake. And so that helped me. So Colin and I created a booklet called Bodies of Nature, and it’s our conversation about the project about aging, and him talking about, I’m aging too as a 20 something, but just this really beautiful piece around how we’re seeing our bodies in nature. He’s seeing his queer body in nature and just all this stuff. So that was kind of the beginning of all of this, and we just published it this year. That was exciting.

Julie Church (37:00):

Okay, I’ll make a link to that.

Connie Sobczak  (37:01):

It’s hard to find. It’s a small press. It’s called Thick press.com is where you can find it. It’s this tiny publisher doing books on social work. There’s some really cool stuff. Their social work is kind of their topic. So then that led, I started My Wise Women Council in 2020, right when the pandemic hit. I created a group of 10 people that have worked with me now for two and a half years, most of them. And then I just started another one this year. And then we’ve moved into, I’m really interested in the Wild Woman archetype and the book Women Who Run With the Wolves. So whatever gender identification people are, it doesn’t matter. It’s just this archetype of connecting with the intuition of connecting with the instinctual nature of, to me, it’s the consciousness piece, but then just really being alive and what does that mean? So that’s what I’ve been working with lately, and I’m going to turn these themes of these sessions that I do into online courses.

Julie Church (38:06):

Fantastic. So

Connie Sobczak  (38:06):

There’ll be short courses. And so that’s what I’m working on now, and we’ll see what happens with all of my work with the body positive. It’s adding something new is fun and challenging and

Julie Church (38:17):

Yes. Oh, I love that. That’s so great. I’m glad to hear that it’s for you to be a person that is so honest and vulnerable and then able to bring other people into that kind of space for their own selves, I think is a real gift. Thank you. I hope that will give you joy in the process of making it. And it will. It will.

Connie Sobczak  (38:37):

Yeah. And what I’ve seen, and because I created The Wise Women Council and the follow-up work, it was specifically for people over 40. And what I’ve seen that’s been absolutely beautiful is the connecting that they’re doing together outside of our work. And we meet once a month, but they’re all connecting outside of that. And to be around people that they can fully relate to, where they can actually fully be themselves. And I think, I forget that people are in spaces where they can’t fully be themselves because I’ve created an environment around myself where with the body positive, where people coming in, they really are themselves, there’s a lot of vulnerability. It’s kind of stripping away facades because we’re like, okay, here we are. This is what we do. So I forget that out in the world, there’s all these spaces where everybody’s kind of putting on their front and facade and can’t show themselves fully for fear of being rejected. And so I love creating spaces for people to come in and be able to start peeling that off and to see what happens. And then we do talk a lot about, A lot of us are dealing with parents dying stages of life. Some have children still at home. How do you manage all this stuff? It’s hard to be older, and there’s a lot of responsibility. So being able to just unload some of that too with each other is really lovely.

Julie Church (40:01):

Yeah, that support, that’s great. That’s cycle of life.

Connie Sobczak  (40:06):

And here we are totally. Here we are. Totally. And for how long? Who knows? And maybe the whole world with climate change and everything, who knows what’s going to happen. So I want to appreciate each moment.

Julie Church (40:18):

Yeah. Yeah. I can tell you’ve really conditioned that attitude since the loss of Stephanie, and I think it’s really unique. I don’t hear that as strongly or as consistently from that many people. And so I really appreciate that, and I hope our listeners have as well. Is there anything else?

Connie Sobczak  (40:36):

One thing when I say I want to appreciate each moment, it doesn’t mean I’m going to be happy in each moment. I think that’s a fallacy that if you do things right, you’re going to be happy all the time. We’re not going to be happy all the time. We are going to suffer. And so accepting that is really freeing because I am still really awake when I’m suffering. And because of that, it might not last as long because I’m not trying to push it away. And that’s a part of the TEDx talk I did, was not pushing away the critical voice and picking it up and holding it and being like, Hey, what’s going on? And listening. And that’s really important.

Julie Church (41:10):

Great. Great. Well, there are lots of nuggets that you have given us, as well as references to books and other voices that I will make sure to put in the link about the show sheet, about this show. Make sure that folks can find your books, find Maya Angelou ‘s Talks at her seventies and eighties. I love it. And is there anything else that you would want to say in closing, Connie?

Connie Sobczak  (41:38):

I would say just, yeah, it’s okay. You don’t have to have a profound closing what you say in closing. Just really just know that you are worthy of love and respect, and starting from yourself and recognize your value and your wisdom and get help if you need to. Make sure that you can feel all of that because you’re precious, you’re here. And that’s something really powerful. And

Julie Church (42:10):

Life, your life matters at all stages too, right?

Connie Sobczak  (42:13):

It does. It does, for sure. And the wisdom that comes as we get older is such a beautiful thing. And the freeing up, I mean, each decade you can feel it leaving some of that stuff lifting off. I mean, as I said, I’m in my sixties and so much is just lifting off. There’s a freedom that comes along with the saggy neck and all the other things that we’re supposed to hate.

Julie Church (42:37):

Yeah. I leave this conversation with more hope and yeah, more kind of positive anticipation, I guess I would say, about aging and the next phases of life. So I appreciate that a lot.

Julie Church (42:49):

I’m so glad. Yeah. Well, thanks for being with us, Connie.

Connie Sobczak  (42:52):

It’s my pleasure, Julie. Yes.

Julie Church (42:54):

Alright, well thanks for being with us. And check the show sheets for all the other nuggets of wisdom that Connie’s given us today. Until next time. Bye now.