The Appetite 126: Behind the Scenes of Pageantry: Reflections from a Diet Culture Lens

 

Julie Church (00:09):

Welcome to the Appetite, a podcast brought to you by Opal Food and Body Wisdom in Eating Disorder Treatment Clinic in Seattle, Washington. Today, I’m your host, Julie Church. I’m nutrition director, one of the co-founders, and also the Director of People and Culture at Opal. And today I am pleased to have a guest in studio that worked for Opal and is now pursuing counseling. But really the main focus of our conversation today will be about the fact that she was Ms. Washington in 2021 and has navigated the pageantry world competing in Miss America that year as well. And our conversation will be focused on the intersections of that world and eating disorders and body image concerns. And so I’m glad to have Maddie Lauder here. Thanks for having me. I’m glad you’re here. And we haven’t talked for a while, so this is actually a very natural, organic conversation.

(01:05):

And a lot of the things that I hope that we talk about today are that I’ve actually had a lot of curiosity in knowing you over the last couple of years. And so I really hope that this will be felt by the listeners too, that this is not a repeat conversation. This is actually, I actually really wonder about this stuff and I want to hear Maddie’s thoughts on it. So Maddie, why don’t you also give some of the context of us knowing each other and what other things you’d want to fill in about Pageant world?

Maddie Lauder (01:32):

Sure. So Julia actually met you through the pageant worlds indirectly. I don’t know if you knew that. I was Miss Emerald City at the time, and in order to compete at Ms. Washington, you hold a local title in the area or the region that you want to represent. I had reached out to Opal because I was curious about what resources there were for eating disorder awareness, and I was an advocate as Ms. Emerald City for eating disorder awareness and education. And so I reached out to Opal and I was like, is there anyone there I can talk to? And it got channeled to you. And so we met over Zoom, and that was kind of where like, Hey, there’s this job offering that we have at Opal. You might be interested in it. So we meant that away. I

Julie Church (02:13):

Recruited you.

Maddie Lauder (02:14):

Yes, you recruited me.

Julie Church (02:16):

Got it. Okay. I didn’t remember that part, but yes, I think something’s coming back of like, oh, I liked this girl. What if?

Maddie Lauder (02:22):

Yeah. Yeah. So that’s how I started. Ended up working at Opal and loved every minute of it, the community there and just being able to help other people find their recovery journey as well. But my background in the pageant industry as well, I started competing when I was in college for the purpose of scholarship, and I really needed money to pay for school. Everyone does, because college is expensive. And I went to Oklahoma City University, competed there in Oklahoma, won some scholarship dollars to pay for my undergrad. And then when COVID hit, which was a weird experience, moved back up to Washington where my family lived, started working at Opal, was finishing my undergrad degree, and now I am pursuing my graduate degree in counseling psychology. But the interim in between my undergrad and graduate degree was when I held the role of Ms. Washington, competed for Ms. Washington, and then later went on to compete for Miss America. So that’s kind of the background of all of it in the industry of how I got involved.

Julie Church (03:17):

Can I ask how some people would go and get a job to make money to go to college or something, but why pageant? Who brought that idea to you, or how was that even on your radar?

Maddie Lauder (03:27):

So Oklahoma City University actually has three former Miss Americas that graduated from there. So they really pride on that fact. And it’s actually really creepy if any of the listeners want to look it up, they have three statues in one of our quads on campus of the former Miss Americas. Look it up, Google it. I’m not kidding you. They’re kind of creepy. They don’t really have eyeballs, but that’s how I was like, wow, this is kind of cool. And on campus and my undergrad, we actually had the Miss Oklahoma City University pageant in which you can compete, and if you won, you got an entire year of tuition, which is like, that’s a good deal for money for scholarship. So I competed in Miss Oklahoma City University, and I was like, this is kind of fun. You meet different people, you get to dance on stage, a dancer, and you get to perform a talent. So I really enjoyed competing the first time that I did it, so just kept going with it.

Julie Church (04:19):

I see. Okay. Yeah, I guess, yeah, you were in an environment where then it was more accessible. It was a lot of different people were considering doing it, and so it didn’t maybe feel as, I don’t know, just out there. To me, it was always a young child watching it on tv. It felt like this really, I don’t know, rare or very few people do this thing. Right, totally. That’s interesting.

Maddie Lauder (04:43):

Yeah.

Julie Church (04:43):

And how would you describe, you mentioned scholarship as your motivation and how else would you describe the pageant world in that way of what else it has as a part of it, because again, as a child growing up, I watched, I guess probably more the Miss USA and Miss America, but I definitely felt it was a lot of beauty. I remember loving the dresses and the talent was also something I loved. But I would say there’s a lot about appearance in it. Totally. So wondering where

Maddie Lauder (05:12):

That, yeah, I think when people think of pageants, they think a mis congeniality. If you’ve ever seen the movie, it’s stereotypical Sandra Bullock, but then there’s also this component of growing up you did and watching Miss America on stage or watching the Miss Universe pageant and seeing all the girls in pretty dresses under stage lights. So there’s that kind of glam component of it that I don’t honestly think draws a lot of people to pageants. It’s normally word of mouth. Someone’s like, Hey, you should try this. I think you’d be really good at it. And as you get into it, you learn more like, Hey, I can pay for school. I’ve earned actually $35,000 in scholarship for school, which is a lot of money. And I also learned just a lot about public speaking and how to interview for a job well and how to feel confident in the interview room. So there’s other components that I think is honestly just professional development that you gain by being surrounded by other women. And for a long time, I mean, women of this world struggled to even have a voice. So the Misser organization really empowered them to do that. And I think it also helps just improve my confidence overall as well.

Julie Church (06:20):

Totally. And when you started then in early college in this world, I guess, what was your view or what view did you have about food and body image eating disorders? What awareness did you have about that and how did being a part of that community influence your mental health or physical health?

Maddie Lauder (06:39):

Totally. I feel like being in pageants was healing, but also kind of detrimental in a sense to my physical health and my eating disorder. So back in college when I was probably entering college, freshman year of college, I was part of their dance program and very toxic environment for those with eating disorders. They actually required their dancers to step on a scale and be weighed.

Julie Church (07:03):

Oh boy.

Maddie Lauder (07:04):

So not a good environment conducive to being in a healthy dance environment at all. So just eating disorders, body image issues all over the place at this university, it’s no longer like that. They switched directors, so good for them. But beside the point, I was spiraling into an eating disorder and being in the pageant industry didn’t necessarily help that. It kind of perpetuated that because you’re also around girls who are competing in a swimsuit portion of the competition.

Julie Church (07:31):

I forgot about the swimsuit part actually. I was thinking pretty dresses, but I did. I know. I forgot about that. That’s right. Wow. Wait, so that was part

Maddie Lauder (07:38):

Of,

Julie Church (07:39):

Because I feel like Ms. Washington there wasn’t

Maddie Lauder (07:41):

Right.

Julie Church (07:42):

Okay.

Maddie Lauder (07:42):

So the Miss America organization, which is the organization I competed in actually right after I competed in 2018, I believe, is when they got rid of the swimsuit portion of competition. So that’s when it started actually allowing me to heal in my body and allow my body to be whatever size it needed to be in order to carry out the good works of being a public servant with a title and being in the pageant world. So I think being in the pageant industry that first year when swimsuit was present, it really just perpetuated the issue and perpetuated my eating disorder. But when they got rid of the swimsuit portion and said, Hey, we want to be more inclusive of all women, and all women are different shapes and sizes. So that really helped allow my body to heal, allow me to give space and time to go seek out a therapist and a dietician and get an outpatient team going so that I could heal from my eating disorder.

Julie Church (08:32):

Got it. That’s great. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I’m sure there’s lots more you could share about that in terms of just that recovery journey and how so many of the things that we’re also empowering and building you up through an organization like this, and maybe mentors and other people around that were positive and how you balanced that with some of the negative. And I share some of the, like you said, toxic for sure. Is there any example or story that you would want to share that would give a little bit of another insight into that season of your

Maddie Lauder (09:05):

Life? Well, let’s see. I remember when I walked on stage, and this was when the swimsuit competition was still in existence. My parents had come out to Oklahoma to watch the Miss Oklahoma pageant, and there’s a visitation after every single night of competition. So you get to visit with your family, take photos, and they got to say, I’m so proud of you. All of those things. And I remember my dad hugging me, and he didn’t tell me this until the following year when there wasn’t swimsuit and my body was actually healing and being at a size that it needed to be at. And he was crying when he told me this. The second year I competed saying, the first time I hugged you, you didn’t feel like Maddie. This year you feel like Maddie again, you’re yourself not only body shape and size, but also you’re yourself because you’re glowing from within of just having that energy again and having this passion for life again and wanting to share what you’ve learned about your own recovery journey. So I think that that was kind of the switch, and it made me realize how much it was detrimental to me during that time. And growing out of that and being able to heal in that way has been really helpful in the trajectory of my life too.

Julie Church (10:13):

Lovely. So lovely that he would share that and be honest in those ways, and you could receive it and help have that voice and support. So it sounds like you were having awareness of the good and the bad being a part of these organizations and these pageants. Any ways that you saw there be influence? You’ve used the word advocacy, and I know that the platform of eating disorder awareness and body image was something you cared about throughout your work. I guess how did you do that even within the structure of the pageant world that maybe you were a voice that maybe was different or,

Maddie Lauder (10:51):

Yeah, I’ve had a lot of conversations with a lot of the girls who were competing about, I just don’t feel good in my body. I don’t feel like I look how I’m supposed to look on stage and kind of this culture of I should look a certain way to be Ms. Washington or to be Miss America, or whoever the title is. And eventually I started being like, you know what? I don’t feel this way anymore, that I have to look a certain way in order to do this job. And I started writing down the reasons why I wanted to be Ms. Washington or why I wanted to be Miss America. And these were things like wanting to serve my community or wanting to be able to inspire young girls to grow up to do whatever they want to do or being able to spread a message of body acceptance. And so this long list came out and I look at it and I’m like, nothing on this list has anything to do with how I look.

(11:41):

And so I started sharing that with other girls in the organization too. Honestly, I’ve seen a shift in Washington of how we view our girls who are competing on stage and how they view themselves. And that is just so empowering in itself. But I think when you look at the volunteers or the other adults or mentors in this organization, a lot of them grew up in this culture where swimsuit was a thing and they would go to extreme lengths to make sure their body looked a certain way and their mental health wasn’t great, but they just shoved that all down, just how the culture was. So really trying to change their mindset has been a challenge. But again, those conversations is really where it starts of why do we think the way we think? Would you ever actually want to be treated that way if you had control of how you were treated?

(12:29):

So really just setting those boundaries in place, asking the directors and mentors, the role models in these girls’ lives to really open up the conversation of like, Hey, do you have issues with your body image? Are you struggling in this way? How can I support you? What are ways that we can maybe veer away from those conversations that are not helpful or not intuitive to a healthy body image or a healthy mindset? So I’ve seen a shift in the culture in Washington, and my hope was to be Miss America and see the shift happen in the entire United States. But I think just in this movement that we’re seeing in culture in general of having more body acceptance and body neutrality on the innerwebs and on social media, you’re starting to see that shift in environments like the pageant industry, which is really cool.

Julie Church (13:13):

That’s awesome. And the ability to do that organically in that community was probably just even more emboldened to have your platform in the schools, right? Yeah. And you did a lot of things there also to do the advocacy work around eating disorder prevention. Is that what you would say, or body image, or what would you say was your advocacy work outside of the community of Ms. Washington?

Maddie Lauder (13:37):

So I offered to speak to schools about a variety of topics, and a lot of them actually took me up on my offer to talk about eating disorders and just, Hey, here’s a knowledge of what an eating disorder is and the symptoms that you can look for in your friends. And a lot of health classes took me up on that offer because health teachers, they’re like, yeah, there’s this thing called an eating disorder, but I don’t know the extent of all of these things. So part of my job right now too is going into our health classes at the high school I work at and talking about eating disorders and body image and what culture says about bodies and the amount of messages that I’ve gotten from students of Why don’t we ever talk about this? And now we do, and this is so good, and we should have been talking about this since the sixth grade.

(14:19):

So the ability to go into the classrooms and even talk to kindergartners about accepting ourselves for who we are, and we’re different than the person next to us, and it’s okay to be different and look different and act different and different things. And so these messages that we can start teaching kids at a very young age, I realized are so important, especially in the role as Ms. Washington, when you have a crown in your head and everything’s sparkly and pretty and you’re teaching these kids, it’s okay to not wear the crown, and it’s okay to just be yourself too.

Julie Church (14:52):

Wait, do you wear the crown when you’re in the schools?

Maddie Lauder (14:56):

Normally, I wouldn’t wear the crown When I was in the school. I would wear the banner just so it was like a giant name tag, but I would hold the crown and at the end of the session that I was teaching or the assembly I’d offer if anyone wanted to put the crown on, so there’d be a line wrapped around the gymnasium and they would all take a picture on their cell phone or their Chromebook.

Julie Church (15:16):

Got it.

Maddie Lauder (15:16):

Yeah.

Julie Church (15:17):

Cool. Just had to get that question in. Oh, it’s neat to hear though. Yeah, I think the impact of all of those seeds that have been planted and all those schools throughout Washington, I remember Maddie was working at OPA when she was doing a lot of those little tours, so kind of navigating the schedule of like, okay, now she’s in Eastern Washington, now she’s in this place and that place, and kind of navigating that. So I know that you’ve touched a lot of people and been able to at least seed plant that in a lot of ways. I know that being somebody that also has been out there in schools and just those one little touch points can feel like a big thing. And sometimes it gets daunting to feel the magnitude of the pain and the trajectory of toxic culture. And I wonder if you had the magic wand or there is something that you would change about the beauty industry or about maybe healthcare or something, what would you think? Do you have a magic? That’s a big question. I know, but you seem like a dreamer. I don’t know. So I’m like, whoa, what’s would be?

Maddie Lauder (16:26):

I don’t know. I feel like it’d be something along the lines of representation and inclusion, because if you don’t see anyone in the position that you want to have that looks like you, then it’s really hard to envision yourself in that place. So I think that would be the biggest thing. We’re always trying to diversify and be more inclusive in the pageant world. And I think that goes for any workspace. Again, if you don’t see someone representing who you are and the culture that you belong to, it’s really hard to place yourself in that position. So if I could change anything about the pageant role, the workforce, just the world in general, that would be so healing for everyone and their past traumas, it would just be like, Hey, let’s have more people in those places where they don’t think they belong.

Julie Church (17:07):

Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And if it would be sort of the snap of the finger magic wand thing, then it would rewrite history in that way too.

Maddie Lauder (17:19):

It

Julie Church (17:19):

Would allow for so many different people to feel like they could pursue that or be a part of that and belong, and then that could really change the trajectory of the lives for so many people. It’s lovely. I think the one aspect of this that I feel like we haven’t gotten into, and I’m trying to understand what I’m wanting to hear is, so this is so the beauty industry, I think that there’s so many things that fit into that in my brain, right?

Maddie Lauder (17:43):

Oh, totally.

Julie Church (17:44):

So if it’s makeup, fashion,

Maddie Lauder (17:48):

Fitness,

Julie Church (17:49):

Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, fitness. And then there’s something about the pageant world utilizes all of those aspects to enhance, I don’t know what somebody might be in terms of their appearance. And I understand with Ms. Washington and some of the transitions of the organization, there’s been some improvement maybe to have it be less appearance focused, but because of the long history of how much the beauty industry has been a part of it, I think that is so daunting. It’s so big to think about all the money and all the things that are the really strong forces that keep those industries alive and keep fueling them based on our body hatred. So I don’t know what I want to hear from you about that, but I just feel like, wow, you’ve been in that, and what do you feel about those things? It’s like the big extreme of going, I’m not going to buy makeup. I’m not going to use makeup. I don’t want to be a part of that. And then it’s the, no, it’s okay to have fun with creative art on our faces or on different parts of our body. It’s okay. But then, I don’t know, I’m just thinking about,

Maddie Lauder (19:03):

I mean, I feel like a lot of it has to do okay, first I’m going to rewind and say that when I was Ms. Washington, of course, the hair, the makeup, all the things, and now I’m just put me in pajamas. I don’t want to lick of makeup on my face. I even my hair’s in a ponytail half the time, I am just really not. I’m burnt out on the beauty industry because it was just my life for a year. And then you find ways to be like, I can still present myself in a professional manner and brush my hair and brush my teeth and take care of my body, the hygiene, the hygiene in a way, and not buy into the beauty industry that is kind of telling us that our body needs to be changed. So I think there is a component of that in the pageant industry of, this dress looks better on you than that dress, or you should probably do your hair this way rather than that way. So I’ve definitely felt that in the pageant industry and people have made comments to me about, Hey, maybe you should add highlights to your hair. It would give you more definition or whatnot.

(20:05):

So there is that aspect of it. And I think it honestly comes down to what’s your why behind those actions? Sure, if you want to wear makeup because you love wearing makeup and you love doing fun eyeshadow colors, and that’s your thing, totally do it. But what’s your why behind it? Is it because someone told you when you were three years old that you looked a certain way and it was bad and now you’re working your entire life to change that? Or is it because you genuinely love fashion and you love just trying different outfits and different textures and patterns, or you being bold with the colors that you wear? So I think it really just comes down to that aspect of it, but it’s really hard to separate the two because the pageant kind of fed off the beauty industry and vice versa for so long. And it still exists. There’s still going to be that crossover there. But yeah, the why behind it

Julie Church (20:55):

That’s good. Is that stuff that you’ve brought into the conversations with kids? I think of parent listeners that then are navigating their kids as they get advertised to and intrigued by the products that are out there. I think to be able to help parents also have the language to be able to help the kids as they think about their why.

Maddie Lauder (21:21):

Yeah, it’s interesting now that I’m working in a high school too, and just seeing the influence that kids have from social media based on appearances, and I’m sure you’re experiencing this now with your kids starting to get older too. It’s like, wow, there’s so much pressure to look a certain way or dress a certain way. And so with parents, and it comes down to, especially if your daughter is getting involved in the pageant industry, just again reminding that worth doesn’t really come from what you look like. Hey, what are the gifts that I have? What are the talents that I have? How am I using that to help other people? And how am I using it to find confidence in myself and my abilities? So teaching that is a really hard, could be lifelong lesson, but parents are doing

Julie Church (21:59):

Absolutely.

Maddie Lauder (22:01):

Just reminding and loving a child for who they are and not what they are is really important.

Julie Church (22:06):

Yeah, I know my mind was wondering too, you mentioned inclusivity, and of course these pageants are still only open to female identifying. Is that true? And so I’m curious about what, if any movement, if there is an interest of having other kinds of competitions out there, or if it’s like that is not at all what we want to be doing in the worlds to enhance that? I think of, I dunno, I was watching America’s Got Talent last night, or there’s so many of those kinds of platforms that really do focus on talent. So maybe that’s filled that gap for the non-female identifying folks in our country. I don’t know. I’m trying to understand if there’s a thing out there, if there’s movements to try to have there be other kinds of pageantry, the

Maddie Lauder (22:58):

Outside. Yeah, I’m not sure on that front. And honestly, I think there’s been lots of conversations happening around that area too. Yeah, female identifying is where a lot of the organizations lie on their rules and regulations. But honestly, again, back to the inclusivity thing, if we’re not welcoming all people or all types of people, and it’s like, baby, we’re still in the dark ages, baby steps towards that direction when it comes to pageants. So hopefully maybe we’ll get to that place one time. That is just people I can participate.

Julie Church (23:33):

And it’s interesting. Obviously I can put centering all the negativity towards beauty industry and we could do a whole thing about sport culture and performance in that way. And then people’s worth getting wrapped up in that or talent. Oh, America’s Got Talent. I love that. Wow. Okay. Do you have to be that successful at singing to be able to enjoy that? Or can you just be a singer and somebody that sings in the shower and

Maddie Lauder (24:03):

Does

Julie Church (24:03):

Karaoke with your friends? It’s just this high achieving. Totally. I’m just feeling the maybe daunting that high achieving pressure, or where does achievement even go? So yeah.

Maddie Lauder (24:17):

Yeah, I’ve definitely felt that I’m a pretty high achieving person and growing up in a dance industry where ballet, it’s just super strict and I grew up in that industry. I continued it when I did pageants. And so that high performing, identity focused, I mean, pageantry in a sense could be a sport, and it’s just a different type of sport. It’s a competition still. Totally. So your worth does get sometimes intertwined with that. So taking a step back from that and realizing who you are aside from those things is really a growth moment.

Julie Church (24:53):

For sure. For sure. And I could see how it could be fun. It’s connecting your friendships. You’re growing as a person, you’re understanding yourself. I think that’s, at least I try to keep coming back to with my kids in terms of what they’re wanting to do. And there’s so much performance focus and still trying to gauge and guide them with fun. And I think at the very beginning of this conversation, when you were intrigued by doing that first pageant, I think you literally said, oh, well that looks like fun. And so you tried it. So I think it’s trying to keep that as a fuel in what we might choose for life too. We don’t have to do stuff that’s only about the win. And I also like the idea of the advocacy work that gave you some sort of platform to go and do meaningful work in the community and be a voice into different things. And I do wonder about that for your recovery journey, it seemed like that’s probably helpful. And where else, I guess what would you say about that work, the advocacy work and how that could be also a fuel for our why? I

Maddie Lauder (26:05):

Dunno. Yeah. So one thing about the advocacy work is that it was super healing for my recovery because in order to educate yourself, and I know at Opal there are didactic groups that actually teach about, Hey, our nutrition and hey, our body and hey sports. Those kinds of things are actually really helpful when you gain that knowledge of these are the actual facts and this isn’t what just social media is telling me. So when you are an advocate for something, typically you have to educate yourself on it to educate other people. So by learning about that stuff of like, Hey, this is what it means, body acceptance, body neutrality, what do these terms actually mean and how can I teach it to other people that helped me heal inside? And I am just a very knowledge base information person. So I really liked learning about all these concepts and things that allowed me to share that knowledge with others.

(26:59):

And I was excited to share these things that I learned with other people. So that was really healing for me. And then realizing that some people who maybe aren’t struggling with an eating disorder but are struggling with body image or are struggling just being in existence in this world that has so many pressure and they’re hearing some of these things, they’re like, oh my gosh, this is so validating to know that I’m not the only one that feels this way. And so in a sense, by me helping other people, it also felt like I was helping myself. So for people out there who are in their recovery journey, and I think there’s a line of doing it for yourself and setting boundaries for yourself of how far I can go when I talk to other people or educate other people on it. But also there’s the line of I want to help create a better world. And I think that’s part of the healing journey, is creating a better world where we can exist and not feel pain or burdened in our bodies. So part of that healing for me was advocacy. And I did it through pageants, which is kind of like this weird twist around way, but it was part of how I was able to heal.

Julie Church (27:58):

Yeah. It gave you the structure that you had to pick something that you cared about,

Maddie Lauder (28:03):

And

Julie Church (28:05):

Not every athlete gets to a point that then they have to pick that or I know not every kid has a reason for that. So I think it’s awesome that you had that opportunity and then got to get out there and do that. But I think it’s well said to say, you have to learn first, and that learning can be a part of the recovery journey. And then to be able to teach and help others, it’s important to take the time, be patient with the process, not jump in too quickly too.

Maddie Lauder (28:36):

Right. Yeah.

Julie Church (28:38):

Well, is there any other thing that’s burning that you were hoping that at the appetite listeners would get to know about Pageant world, or I wonder too about the invitations. I always find that you’re a person that has things brewing or knows about things that are going on in the community. And I would wonder if there’s any invitations that you have out there for anyone that’s intrigued by the pageant world or maybe just at eating disorder advocacy broadly.

Maddie Lauder (29:08):

Well, I don’t have anything out the top of my brain right now. No. Yeah, I am laying

Julie Church (29:15):

Low right now. You’re laying low, you’re doing your grad school. You’re working. Yeah. That’s fair. That’s fair. I feel like you’ve brought us other options and things that we are aware of in the community. So I’ve always thought you was down to the ground on that when you were in the midst of that year, I suppose, as you were wearing the crown

Maddie Lauder (29:33):

Around

Julie Church (29:35):

At Seafair weekend. You were out in the Seafair Parade that year,

Maddie Lauder (29:37):

Right? Yeah. Lots

Julie Church (29:38):

Of fun stuff. Not this year. That’s good. Cool. Okay. Well, thanks for being here and having this conversation. I think it’s stuff that people have wondered about the pageant world. So it’s good to hear from somebody that’s been inside that and also aware of eating disorders and body image concerns. So thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And if you want to learn anything about Opal and our offerings, please check us out at our Instagram accounts, which are at Opal Food and Body, or at Opal Movement for a more movement focused following there or at our website at opal food and body.com. And thank you to Jack Straw Cultural Center for Sound Engineering. David Bazzi for editing. And Aaron Davidson for our original music. Until next time.