Dr. Lexi Giblin, PhD and Kara Bazzi, LMFT, Opal Co-Founders, sit down with Poppy and Lily to do a self-inquiry double click on these two particular experiences of shame management. Poppy shares an encounter with shame and disgust where her response is to “mask everything and puff up” while wanting her “old body back.” A “deep, profound worthlessness” prompts an urge for Lily to work hard to be likable, meet others’ expectations, and “shrink” herself, not just physically. The group does their self-inquiry job and successfully hits on some angsty edges of learning for Poppy and Lily.
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Thank you to our team…
Editing by David Bazzi
Music by Aaron Davidson: https://soundcloud.
Sound engineering by Ayesha Ubayatilaka at Jack Straw Studios
Transcription by Rev.com
Lexi Giblin (00:07):
Welcome to the Appetite, a podcast brought to you by Opal Food and Body Wisdom, an eating disorder treatment clinic in Seattle, Washington. On this podcast, we talk about all things food, body movement, and mental health. I am Dr. Lexi Giblin, your host for today, and I’m here with Ms. Kara Bazzi. Hi everyone. And Kara is our Opal Clinical Director, and of course one of the founders along with Julie Church and I, and we are joined today by Poppy and Lily, who will be doing self-inquiry on this episode in a bit. Hello, poppy and Lily.
Poppy (00:50):
Hi.
Lexi Giblin (00:52):
So glad to have you with us today. So in this self-inquiry series, we conduct Opal Self-Inquiry Group on the podcast. So listeners, as many of you may already know, will learn the self-inquiry process and potentially find resonance and inspiration in the difficult questions that are posed to take to their own self-inquiry work. And if you are new to self-inquiry or you would just like a refresher or you would like to cajole yourself into the self-inquiry mode, listen to my short self-inquiry overview episode. So before we hear from Poppy and Lily, let me throw out just a couple reminders. So in self-inquiry, we are going opposite to where we typically go with our emotions, and that is towards them, that is towards difficult emotions. So we’re choosing to go where we resist with a particular goal in mind. And that particular goal is learning. And in self-inquiry, we assume that the most painful emotions that we experience as humans are full of great questions and great learning and deep understandings that we would not otherwise be able to access if we didn’t sit in those emotions and ask these questions with curiosity around what the learning is.
(02:28):
So Poppy and Lily have just done a five minute journal process, self-inquiry process, and in that process they found, they followed basically three steps where they identified a specific time where they experienced an unwanted emotion and they took themselves back into that emotionally. So it’s an experiential, so where you are feeling what you felt when the experience originally happened, then the second step is to get curious and ask that question, what is the learning here? And then finally, we’re looking to find a reminder. So what is a good question to get you back to this learning in the future? And what questions do you not want to ask? And so the questions are intended to make you feel some kind of way, and that some kind of way is something you don’t want to feel. So they’re intended to be dysregulating and uncomfortable. And of course, we ask those questions to ourselves and to each other with kindness because we’re supporting the person’s growth and learning, and they are consenting to this experience of being asked difficult questions in the spirit of learning and growth. So as I said, if you want to learn more, go to the self-inquiry overview episode and get a deeper dive there.
(04:01):
So without further ado, poppy or Lily, would you take us into your self-inquiry work?
Poppy (04:12):
Sure, I could go first.
Lexi Giblin (04:16):
Great. This is Poppy.
Poppy (04:18):
Just want me to just, yes, this is Poppy. If you want me to just jump in.
Lexi Giblin (04:22):
Yeah. Great. Poppy, that’s perfect. Take us into your self-inquiry.
Poppy (04:28):
So this is a wrestling match that I’m having with myself about my body and specifically my athlete body. Recently I did some athletic testing for a research project and it involved running while wearing an EKG on my chest. And when I took my shirt off to have the sensors put in place, I found myself sort of unknowingly staring at the other woman who was there also doing the test and comparing my body to hers. In my recovery process, I have gained a significant amount of weight. And in that moment when I was comparing myself to this other woman, I just felt this immense shame and disgust and this desire to withdraw and run away, but also I couldn’t because I was doing this thing. And so I had to mask all of that and sort of puff and pretend like everything was fine while I’m having these thoughts about, I don’t look like a runner or any kind of athlete anymore.
(06:08):
And this hatred for my body was just so big and the shame was even bigger her, but I couldn’t run away. So I had to just sort of pretend like things were fine. And I kept thinking, I know all of the things that people are going to tell me about how there’s no one athlete body, there’s no specific runner’s body, and the idea that there is is incredibly harmful, but this part of me that feels so much body disgust just doesn’t care about any of that. And craves my smaller body, craves this feeling of putting on my running clothes, having them skim over my skin, and just feeling lighter and bouncier in my movement. I was standing there in that moment knowing that I was about to do this run and feel heavy, and now also emotionally heavy and feeling like I couldn’t talk to anyone about this feeling because they’re just going to tell me that I need to buy different clothes or do strength work that I can handle having a heavier body. And in reality, I was just standing there wanting my old body back and feeling so much sadness and shame and disgust. And this whole thing is definitely an old story that I have that I’ve struggled with for, I don’t know, two decades at this point.
(08:20):
And I came up with I questions at the end, but they don’t feel all that helpful.
Lexi Giblin (08:32):
Could you give us a sense of those so we make sure we don’t repeat them?
Poppy (08:38):
Sure. The first question I asked myself was, what if being in my old body wouldn’t actually make me feel more of an athlete or just wouldn’t make me feel better at all? So basically, what if I’m wrong and why does a certain body type seem like it will help me feel more included in the running community?
Lexi Giblin (09:12):
Okay. Okay, thanks Poppy. And are you open to questions from us?
Poppy (09:20):
Absolutely.
Lexi Giblin (09:21):
Okay. I think I have a clarifying question before we move to the self-inquiry questions.
Poppy (09:27):
Sure.
Lexi Giblin (09:28):
And that is just around are you in a place of recovery right now or is this coming from more of a place of managing your body disgust while not in recovery?
Poppy (09:47):
How are you defining
Lexi Giblin (09:49):
Recovery? Great question. Okay. So maybe there’s somewhere in between recovered and
Poppy (10:01):
I certainly would not consider myself recovered.
Kara Bazzi (10:12):
Lexi, maybe this helps. Are you asking if she’s actively using eating disorder behaviors as a way is in the
Lexi Giblin (10:25):
Relationship
Kara Bazzi (10:26):
Between the body disgust?
Lexi Giblin (10:28):
I think so, because I think my questions may be different depending on whether you’re responding to these experiences with eating disorder symptoms or whether you’re responding to this body disgust by in other ways.
Poppy (10:52):
I guess I’m somewhere in the middle. Definitely. I wouldn’t say that there’s an absence of eating disorder behavior. I, I’m currently in one of those spaces where my eating disorder behavior doesn’t work, but I’m still doing it.
Kara Bazzi (11:14):
Okay.
Poppy (11:15):
Yeah.
Kara Bazzi (11:17):
I have another clarifying question, and that is, when you were thinking about your own, when you’re getting into the dysregulation, is it more dysregulating around your perception of your body and the body disgust? Or was there more dysregulation around wanting to run away and feeling trapped in that experience because you were doing this testing? Does one feel stronger than the other? Not being able to run away versus the
Poppy (11:47):
Body disgust feels
Kara Bazzi (11:48):
Stronger.
Poppy (11:49):
Stronger,
Kara Bazzi (11:50):
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Lexi Giblin (11:53):
Okay. So self-inquiry questions for Poppy. I think one that comes to mind, you said that you felt, because of the situation you were in, you had to pretend like things were fine. And my question would be where did you get the idea that you have to pretend? Or what would it be like to be real in that moment? I
Poppy (12:32):
Definitely, some quick answers
Lexi Giblin (12:34):
Showing
Poppy (12:35):
Up.
Lexi Giblin (12:38):
And so for those of you who are new to self-inquiry, we are suspicious of quick answers. And I think Poppy’s referring to that, knowing that sometimes the quick answers are ways of trying to regulate ourselves and move away.
Lily (12:58):
I have one. Do you find that you believe that people including yourself or maybe only yourself, that only people in smaller bodies are deserving and worthy of participating and enjoying certain kinds of movement and that if they are not in those bodies and engaging in those certain movements, that they are not deserving of the joy, the companionship, or other aspects of movement?
Poppy (13:50):
That question definitely stirs something up.
Poppy (13:56):
Okay.
Kara Bazzi (14:05):
I have something around, what are people missing with you by giving you these answers around all bodies in the recovery community, around all bodies fit for sport, and then that inclusion, I just have some question around what is being missed? How are you being missed in that? I don’t know that that’s really a self-inquiry question though,
Poppy (14:34):
Even if it’s not a self-inquiry question. I like it.
Kara Bazzi (14:39):
Yeah,
Poppy (14:40):
It’s right. It’s making me cry.
Lexi Giblin (14:42):
Yeah. Okay. Can you say that again, Kara?
Kara Bazzi (14:47):
Yeah. What is being, there’s something in the recovery community, what is being missed about knowing Poppy by giving these answers around inclusive bodies in the athlete community, the approach people are taking, there’s something that is not what needs are not getting met or what way of being known is not getting met.
Lexi Giblin (15:22):
I think one of my questions is kind of in a similar vein was that you talked about not wanting to go to anyone and let them know what you were feeling because you were concerned, you were just going to hear things you didn’t, that weren’t going to be helpful. And so I think I have, there’s some question around, the questions are like, are you not reaching out to the people? Who are you communicating? Are you being clear about what you need from people? And is the solution to just withdraw? Why did you get the idea that the solution was to just hold it in and deal with it on your own? Poppy, are we hitting on anything with,
Poppy (16:31):
Oh, yeah. I’m just crying over here. Okay.
Lexi Giblin (16:37):
The only other note I had made was around asking a question around envy, are you someone who’s familiar with feeling envy? And I think that’s more of a self-inquiry question of not a clarifying one, but just what does the word envy bring up in you? An envy this? I don’t like that question. Yeah. So sometimes just hearing words and thinking, am I a person who is envious? That itself can bring up feelings? Of course. Envy is this shame blended with anger.
Kara Bazzi (17:33):
And maybe related to the question I earlier asked too, is there unexpressed anger towards the people giving you those answers? The recovery answers?
Poppy (17:54):
Yeah. This is hitting buttons. Okay.
Lexi Giblin (18:00):
Yeah. So to follow that, what is this saying about your relationships? Okay, poppy, that’s a lot of heat on,
Poppy (18:20):
Yeah.
Lexi Giblin (18:21):
But it sounds like we hit on some potential lines of learning for you.
Poppy (18:27):
Yeah, I’ve got quite a bit that I needed to get into now.
Lexi Giblin (18:32):
Okay. Really appreciate you sharing. So Lily,
Lily (18:43):
Hi,
Lexi Giblin (18:44):
Would you be willing to share yourself and Corey work with us?
Lily (18:49):
Yeah, I would. Yeah. Thanks for being brave and going first. Poppy. Yeah, I was journaling. I was trying to think of very recent, isolated situations. And all I could think of were just the numerous, many isolated situations where I’ve kind of had a similar reaction and unwanted feelings. So just for context, ever since I was in about middle school or so, and I’m in my thirties, I have just been, I felt this need to be so agreeable, wanting people to like me, wanting people to love me, wanting people to give me praise. And over time, that has morphed into not just seeking love and praise, but wanting to go so far beyond people’s expectations that they would just never be disappointed in me or let down by me. And this has come up and still comes up in my roles as a friend, as an athlete, or how I identify as an athlete, as a partner, as a lover, a daughter, in all rules of my life that historically I would go so far against my own values and wants, needs my own emotions, and even just void myself of those things to ensure that every part of me is what people are expecting and more so they’ll be pleased, they won’t be bored, they’ll be impressed, whatever.
(20:47):
And that has knowingly made me feel icky going against my own values and my own emotions. That feels icky to me, but to me, I’ve just made that ickiness very acceptable. It’s a small cost, so long as people are okay with me and in my recovery work, I mean, a lot of my work is around vulnerability and authenticity and whether it’s boldly or subtly or somewhere in between, and showing my authentic self to others and feeling that. But in this group of situations, some of them are really small time, low risk, and some of them are very more intense. And I perceive there to be a lot more risk.
(21:37):
There have been so many times when I feel that I have not performed or behaved to someone’s expectations or that they are disappointed in me, or maybe they’re hurt by my actions, I am just so overcome by this, sorry, getting nervous to say this out loud. I feel like I’m outing myself. I am so overcome by this urge, this deep urge to be smaller, to shrink myself physically, my personality, my emotions, my actions, whatever, feeling like this urge to shrink myself. I know it blocks me from authenticity and for me recovery, because I smallness just, it feels like right in those moments, I have done this to someone, and therefore I need to retreat into smallness. I need to shrink myself.
(22:50):
Not only this is what I deserve, but retreating into smallness. It makes me feel under control. Like this will be fixed. I can fix this this way, it’ll make me better next time, and therefore I will be acceptable again to others. And this situation has come up very recently, very minor, but I still felt this urge so deeply. And the feelings that come from that that are really painful are definitely shame. Also, a lot of desperation. I feel so bad that I want this to be okay, but I cannot shrink myself fast enough. But I’m so desperate for that, a feeling of emptiness and hollowness. Maybe it’s more of a sensation, but just this overwhelming emptiness. But the most painful one is definitely, and it’s taken me a long time to put a word to this feeling because I don’t really associate myself with this feeling, but just deep, profound worthlessness, I screwed up. I deserve this. I don’t matter. In the smaller that I am, the more I shrink, the closer I’ll get to this just disappearing, which to me feels acceptable for the other person.
(24:37):
And the question, I mean, I asked myself two questions. The first one, I’m just always curious, why do I retreat to a facade of smallness when I really long for authenticity, but also, and the one that gets me where the learning is, this all just feels like self-sabotage and punishment, and that has costs also, and it does not feel good. But why am I so drawn to that when I long for authenticity and sometimes in a bold way, why am I so drawn to self-sabotage and punishment oftentimes when it’s not being given by the other person instead of self-compassion and giving myself grace? And that’s kind of where I ended.
Lexi Giblin (25:35):
Okay. And you’re open to questions from us? I
Lily (25:45):
Am. Okay.
Poppy (25:48):
Wait, because I have
Lily (25:49):
Some,
Poppy (25:58):
I guess there are two that are swirling around in my mind right now. You spoke about spending so much of your energy trying to be agreeable, and you give this agreeableness to other people, but you don’t really get it back for yourself. And I’m wondering what it would take for you to feel worthy of something like self-compassion or that softness that would allow you to be worthy of being a human who makes mistakes. My other question is related to those painful emotions that you mentioned, the shame and the emptiness and that intense worthlessness. And I’m curious if throughout your life you have adapted in ways that somehow have come to make those feelings soothing or if there’s something soothing about shrinking into shame and emptiness and worthlessness
Kara Bazzi (27:48):
Related to what Poppy just asked. My big question is, where did you learn to bypass anger?
Lily (28:07):
That’s an interesting one that I have not thought of. Yeah.
Kara Bazzi (28:17):
And I say that kind of in a big picture. It feels like anger is missing. So I could have a whole series of those. Where did you learn to bypass anger? What makes you think anger isn’t important? Why aren’t you holding anger outside of yourself? What makes you think you’re truly connected to people without anger? So I’d have a whole series of anger inquiry questions,
Lily (28:58):
And I feel like I have so many quick answers for that too. But also it’s something I haven’t thought of too much. So
Lexi Giblin (29:16):
I have a line of questions that may be related to what Kara just asked, but I hear that from an early age you were really interested in being lovable, and that guided a lot of your decision making and how you were. And so my question is, what if being agreeable actually makes you less lovable? And then to add to what Kara posed, what if holding back your anger and being agreeable makes you less lovable?
Lily (30:22):
That’s hard to think of. That’s a hard line of thinking for me.
Kara Bazzi (30:37):
Yeah. What if your whole pursuit isn’t working in the way that you think it’s working?
Poppy (30:51):
Yeah.
Kara Bazzi (30:58):
And in some ways, the self-sabotage or the punt, the shrinking is a protective pathway to avoid that. What if it’s really not about that?
Lexi Giblin (31:29):
Another question that comes to mind is, what if this punishment of self shrinking yourself is actually selfish?
Lily (31:50):
That’s a really hard one.
Lexi Giblin (31:55):
Making you less available to your people, to the world.
Lily (32:04):
Oh my gosh. I feel like I have so many comeback statements for that I just don’t want to put out there. But yeah, that is hard.
Poppy (32:14):
It does feel like a hard one.
Lily (32:22):
Oh my gosh, I have so much that, oh my gosh. Yeah.
Kara Bazzi (32:30):
And you’re getting there is dysregulation even with the quick answers. I don’t. Yeah,
Lily (32:36):
There is. I’m feeling like my response would be defensive, especially with the question of what if your pursuit is for not, essentially my pursuit of being agreeable is actually making me less lovable. But also, what if that is selfish? Yeah. I feel like I’ve tried to avoid that, the selfishness. But what if it is, and what does that mean? That’s really, yeah, that is hard.
Lexi Giblin (33:39):
Okay. Any remaining self-inquiry questions for Lily?
Poppy (33:49):
Not for me.
Lexi Giblin (33:50):
Okay.
Kara Bazzi (33:55):
Not for me. Yeah. I think we got it. Yeah.
Lexi Giblin (33:57):
Me neither. Okay. So thank you Poppy and Lily for taking us into your brave, difficult self inquiry work. It’s much appreciated. And I know I am leaving today feeling moved by your willingness to consider these difficult ideas and questions that we were posing. And if you are interested in doing self-inquiry on the air with us, submit an application by clicking on the link in the episode description. And if you want to learn more about self-inquiry, go to our self-inquiry overview episode, as I said. And thank you to Jack Straw Cultural Center for Sound engineering. Thanks to Aaron Davidson for appetite’s original music, and to David Bazzi for editing. If you want to learn more about opal’s programming, go to opal food and body.com. Until next time.
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